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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
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50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
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Interview of Richard & Barbara Dulin
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February 20, 2017
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(15:03:58)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Today is February 20th, 2017.
I
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am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing
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Reverend Richard Dulin and his wife, Mrs. Barbara
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Dulin, via telephone for the City of Lawrence Fair
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Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History
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Project.
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At the time the ordinance passed in July,
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1967, Reverend Dulin was the chairman of the
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Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee.
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Reverend and Mrs. Dulin, before we begin the
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interview I just want to confirm that you are both
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aware that I am recording this telephone interview
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and have your permissions to do so.
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MRS. DULIN:
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(15:04:31)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Yes.
Okay, thank you.
I would like
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to start off by asking you both to share a little
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bit about your backgrounds and what brought you to
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Lawrence in the 1960s.
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REVEREND DULIN:
thoughts.
(indiscernible)
MR. ARNOLD:
through.
I'm trying to collect my
The audio is not really coming
Could the phone be held up a little bit
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closer to Reverend Dulin.
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MRS. DULIN:
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REVEREND DULIN:
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Okay.
I have had a lot of
experiences in race relations. (indiscernible)
I had an experience (indiscernible) with a
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demonstration when I was in seminary
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(indiscernible) Nashville, sit-in.
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MRS. DULIN:
This is Barbara.
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
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MRS. DULIN:
Helping Dick to get through all
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this.
Can you hear me?
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I can.
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MRS. DULIN:
Okay.
He was born in Kansas
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City and his family and his mother and his father
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were Kansans and then they moved to Texas and he
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went to the junior high and high school in Dallas,
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he went to TCU and got his B.A. there, and then he
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moved to Vanderbilt Divinity School and he
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graduated in 1960, which is a big day where all
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the sit-ins and (indiscernible) his classmates, so
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all that started with his seminary.
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Then he graduated and he went to Tempe,
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Arizona, and then Texas A & M and then Denton,
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Texas, at North Texas and Texas Women's
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University.
He was being a campus minister for
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all those jobs and he was, we were work, he was
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working in Denton and then things, all the
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churches were blowing up with the pastors in the
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churches through all that period and finally JFK,
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the President, was killed just 30 minutes away
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from us, and so finally the big problem was that
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the Christian churches that we were involved with
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were blowing up and so he decided he would go to
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United Church of Christ and they asked for a job
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for campus minister and K.U. asked him to come and
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so he was on the staff at Plymouth Congregational
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there and he was on a floating ministry that went
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into the campus and so that's why we came to
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Lawrence, and so that's where we are at this
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point.
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
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MRS. DULIN:
And now you can go a little
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farther if you want to Dick.
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(15:09:23)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
And then I'd just like to
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ask, so when you arrived in Lawrence how did you
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find the racial atmosphere in the city of Lawrence
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to be at that time?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I really didn't find much
conflict (indiscernible) civil rights.
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(inaudible)
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aware of.
There wasn't any conflict that I was
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(15:09:59)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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fairly peaceful city?
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African-Americans obvious at that time?
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So Lawrence at that time was a
REVEREND DULIN:
Was discrimination against
(indiscernible) I'm just
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saying that I was not aware of any conflict except
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in the housing area.
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(15:10:30)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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REVEREND DULIN:
What -When I was at TCU there was
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a white, completely white group and so K.U. saw a
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different complexion through the sports program
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and the growing black population.
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(15:11:08)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Why did you decide, Reverend
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Dulin, to get involved with fair housing issues at
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that time?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:11:21)
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MR. ARNOLD:
It kind of pursued me.
So you were asked to become the
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chairman of the Fair Housing Coordinating
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Committee, or at least initially a member of the
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committee?
�6
REVEREND DULIN:
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committee, appointed by the campus ministry group.
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(15:11:56)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes, I was a member of the
Can you tell me a little bit
about what the committee was trying to accomplish?
REVEREND DULIN:
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They were trying to provide
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fair housing to students enrolled in the college
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(indiscernible) graduate students and their
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families.
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(15:12:31)
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MR. ARNOLD:
So at that time they were
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subject to housing discrimination and you got
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involved to try and address that?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:12:42)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes.
And do you recall how you became
the chairman of the coordinating committee?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
No.
Do you remember any of the other
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people who were involved?
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in your mind who were also on the committee with
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you?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Does anyone stand out
I remember one person who
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was on the committee.
She was the director of the
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YMCA at the university and her support was
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critical, but I can't remember her name.
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Dulin is probably referring to Mrs. Anne Moore.
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She was a known member of the Fair Housing
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Coordinating Committee in 1966, and her husband
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Tom Moore was the Director of the University of
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Kansas YMCA].
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(15:13:39)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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that up.
Okay.
[Rev.
Well, I think we can look
Thank you.
Do you remember why the committee chose in
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early 1967 to go to the City Human Relations
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Commission to ask for a fair housing ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Yes.
It was an urgent
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appeal because black students and African students
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and students from Hawaii and all over the globe
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were seeking good housing close to campus.
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(15:14:53)
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MR. ARNOLD:
And when you appeared before the
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Human Relations Commission in January, 1967, did
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they seem very receptive to the proposal for fair
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housing?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:15:11)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes.
And from looking at historical
material it appears that the Fair Housing
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Coordinating Committee that you were the chairman
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of worked very closely with the Human Relations
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Commission to draft the ordinance.
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correct?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Is that
As far as I'm aware I think
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that was (indiscernible) the proposal by the Human
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Relations Committee.
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(15:15:58)
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MR. ARNOLD:
And were you and the members of
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your committee confident that the City Commission
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would be receptive to a fair housing ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I didn't have any
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preconceived notions but really just had immediate
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reactions in the community, individual students,
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who were impacted, and they figured fair housing
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was necessary to take care of the problem.
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(15:17:14)
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MR. ARNOLD:
So it sounds as if many people
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recognized that this was a problem that needed to
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be addressed?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:17:23)
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MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, one thing we found
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interesting was at the time the Human Relations
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Commission was drafting the ordinance the Fair
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Housing Committee that you were the chairman of
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went out and conducted a signature campaign and
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collected over a thousand signatures from people
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in support of fair housing.
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signature campaign?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:17:49)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Do you recall that
Yes.
Do you remember whose idea that
was to do that?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:18:05)
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MR. ARNOLD:
No, I don't think so.
Okay.
I can't recall.
Were you surprised at how many
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signatures you obtained?
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signatures was very significant considering the
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size of Lawrence at that time.
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you that that many people were supportive?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Because over a thousand
Did that surprise
Yes, very much.
It was
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obvious that there was a great need for such a
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committee.
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(15:18:32)
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MR. ARNOLD:
The one thing I wanted to ask
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you about was the support of the churches.
Much
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of the research we have done and other people I
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have interviewed indicated that a large number of
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Lawrence churches were very supportive of fair
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housing and trying to create this ordinance.
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you find that to be the case?
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clergymen very supportive and fellow churches very
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supportive?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Did
Were your fellow
Yes, but not, but not the
realtors.
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(15:19:07)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
The realtors appeared to
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be the only people who were in opposition.
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you say the support of the churches was a very
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important element in getting the ordinance passed
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by the City Commission?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:19:25)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Would
Yes.
Do you remember any fellow
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clergymen who were involved in this effort that
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you worked with?
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REVEREND DULIN:
No, except for one other
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campus minister, who became the chairman of the
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Fair Housing Ordinance [Committee] shortly after
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establishing it.
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(15:19:57)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember his name?
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REVEREND DULIN:
No, I can't remember his
name, but I remember he was Presbyterian.
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(15:20:06)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Was there any controversy
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within your church about some people being
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socially active as you were or was all the
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membership of the church very supportive, all the
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congregation?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Well, I think that this kind
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of issue would run a hard road to solution, with
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the church support this was necessary, but there
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was conflict within the congregations.
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trouble for the realtors and some other people.
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(15:21:07)
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MR. ARNOLD:
They made
Do you remember working also
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with members of the black churches in favor of
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fair housing?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:21:24)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Would you say that cooperation
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was very good between your church and some of the
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black churches in working issues like this?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Yes, particularly my church,
which was United Church of Christ.
(15:21:43)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Can you think of any
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other churches specifically that were involved,
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either white or black churches?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Well, most of the churches
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had a positive reaction to a Fair Housing
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Ordinance.
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(15:22:16)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Good.
And I wanted to ask you
about in May, 1967, when the City Commission was
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considering the Fair Housing Ordinance, you
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appeared before the commission and said you had
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the signatures of 23 clergymen from throughout
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Lawrence who were all in support.
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obtaining those signatures and that support from
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other clergymen?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:22:41)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember
Yes.
And do you think that was an
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important consideration for the City Commission in
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passing the ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I'm sure it had a great deal
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of importance to the committee to have the
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churches line up behind it.
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(15:23:08)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
And also the university,
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some, the university vice chancellor and
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basketball coach Ted Owens wrote letters in
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support of fair housing to the City Commission.
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Do you think that was also important in positively
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influencing them?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Oh, definitely.
That was
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very important, because the basketball program
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there (indiscernible) long-term relation to the
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college.
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(15:23:59)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I don't know if you remember a
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gentleman named Fred Six.
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and was a member of the Human Relations Commission
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and he did much of the drafting of the Fair
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Housing Ordinance, but do you recall if members of
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your committee worked with him in drafting the
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ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:24:22)
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MR. ARNOLD:
He was a local attorney
Yes.
Do you remember a law professor
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named Robert Casad?
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committee and also helped in doing research.
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:24:35)
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MR. ARNOLD:
He was a member of your
Yes, of course.
Okay.
Was he very helpful in
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the process of developing the ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:24:44)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Were there any other people who
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you can think of off the top of your head who
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played an important role?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:25:02)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I just remember a few.
Right.
I know it's been 50
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years, which is a long time.
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Glenn Kappelman, who was a local realtor but who
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was very much in favor of fair housing?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Do you remember
Do I remember?
Yes, he was
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one of the positive realtors who supported the
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housing ordinance right after, right off the bat,
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and that was a great help.
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(15:25:40)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
And I know many people at
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the university supported fair housing and many of
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the churches did, but would you say it was also
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important to have people like Glenn Kappelman,
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local businessmen, who were standing up in favor
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of fair housing?
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local people that this was something that needed
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to be done?
Did that help influence many
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:26:10)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I'm sure it did.
Now I think it was in April,
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1967, when the Fair Housing Ordinance was
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initially presented to the City Commission.
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the City Commission seem receptive to the idea of
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a fair housing ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:26:28)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Did
Yes.
Were you surprised that they
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were receptive and that they eventually passed the
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ordinance or did you expect that to happen?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I think that they had such a
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level of support from the community that it was
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almost inevitable that the City Council would have
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voted for it.
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(15:27:06).
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MR. ARNOLD:
There was one commissioner who
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voted against it.
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objections were, or do you remember what the real
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estate community's objections were?
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Do you remember what his
REVEREND DULIN:
They felt that that was an
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interference with what the community tried to do
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and they were opposed this interference from
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outside the committee.
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(15:27:55)
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MR. ARNOLD:
A couple of people I have
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interviewed have suggested that there were some
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real estate agents who actually welcomed the fair
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housing law.
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right thing to do but they were afraid to speak
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out in support of it because they thought it might
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hurt their business.
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that some of them actually were supportive but
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They thought fair housing was the
Do you think that was true,
just couldn't say so publicly?
REVEREND DULIN:
That's true.
Course, Glenn
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Kappelman was one of the, outspoken supporter of
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the commission.
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(15:28:46)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I think -- go ahead.
What?
I said I think he played, many
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people have said he played a very important role
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because he was a member of the real estate
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community.
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committee to try to help promote fair housing?
Did he work closely with your
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(indiscernible)
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(15:29:20)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Reverend Dulin, can you tell me
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a little bit more about what you personally did as
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chairman of the fair housing committee, what types
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of duties you had and what some of your ideas were
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that you remember?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I was conscious of the
chamber to support Fair Housing Commission.
7
(15:30:13)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I know there were many local
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community groups that were in support of fair
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housing and many of them had members on your
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committee, the League of Women Voters, Church
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Women United, the NAACP.
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as the chairman to bring all those groups together
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or was their support very strong and it made your
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job easier?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Was it difficult for you
Their reaction was very
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strong in favor of the commission and we got a lot
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of help from those people particularly League of
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Women Voters, NAACP and the Church Women United,
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and all, all the others that you mentioned.
21
(15:31:21)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, good.
I just want to ask
23
you about some people who were involved with those
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groups.
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African-American woman who was the president of
Do you remember Dorothy Harvey, an
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Church Women United?
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REVEREND DULIN:
3
(15:31:36)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Yes.
And also a gentleman named Jesse
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Milan, who was an African-American teacher in the
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Lawrence schools?
7
NAACP.
He was the president of the
Was their support very important?
8
REVEREND DULIN:
9
(15:31:51)
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MR. ARNOLD:
11
Yes.
And do you remember working with
them on this issue?
12
REVEREND DULIN:
13
(15:32:01)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Tell me a little bit about how
15
you worked with the leaders of these other
16
organizations.
17
REVEREND DULIN:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
What was that?
Can you tell me a little bit
19
about how you worked with those people, the
20
leaders of these other organizations?
21
attend your meetings?
22
discussions with them?
23
coordinated with those groups?
24
25
REVEREND DULIN:
support these groups.
Did they
Did you have individual
Do you remember how you
Yes.
It was necessary to
�19
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(15:33:03)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I wanted to ask you, in February
3
of 1967 as the Human Relations Commission was
4
starting to work on the Fair Housing Ordinance,
5
preparing it to send up to the City Commission,
6
your committee submitted a several page long
7
position paper on fair housing which had your
8
signature on it.
9
have members of your committee work together to
10
11
Did you draft that or did you
draft that, do you remember?
REVEREND DULIN:
I remember participating on
12
that, working out the language and the issues and
13
how it would be spread around the community.
14
(15:33:57)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember any other people
16
who worked with you on that paper?
17
Casad, the law professor, one of the ones who
18
assisted with that?
19
REVEREND DULIN:
20
(15:34:12)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Was Robert
Yes.
And then also at the City
22
Commission hearings in which fair housing was
23
discussed, in which the ordinance was discussed,
24
large numbers of people turned out to speak on
25
behalf of fair housing.
Did you arrange for all
�20
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those speakers to come or did many of them just
2
hear about it and came on their own?
3
REVEREND DULIN:
They were voluntary that
4
supported the fair housing commission [committee]
5
and I worked with a lot of those people.
6
(15:35:14)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
And when the city held its
8
hearing in which the, to hear the opposing views
9
the only people who showed up were I think one
10
real estate agent and a lawyer for the real estate
11
agents.
12
other opposition or did you think that really at
13
that point very few people were opposed?
14
Were you surprised that there was no
REVEREND DULIN:
I think that I believed that
15
the ordinance was fair, in sync with the
16
committee.
17
(15:36:08)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
So I take it, then, that you
19
were very pleased that there was not very much
20
opposition other than just from the narrow group
21
of real estate agents?
22
REVEREND DULIN:
23
(15:36:20)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Yes.
And do you think that helped
influence the City Commission to pass it, because
�21
1
so many people spoke in favor and only a very
2
narrow group spoke in opposition?
3
REVEREND DULIN:
4
(15:36:34)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, how would you characterize
6
the position of some of, I'll describe it as maybe
7
the city establishment, people like the local
8
newspaper?
9
doubts?
Were they supportive or did they have
I know your committee published several
10
articles in the paper in favor of fair housing.
11
Was the newspaper happy to run those or do you
12
think they were a bit more reluctant?
13
REVEREND DULIN:
14
(15:37:03)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
They were happy.
Okay, that's good.
And I spoke
16
to, I don't know whether you remember Richard and
17
Phyllis Sapp.
18
a biology professor at K.U. but he said he
19
arranged for all those articles to be written as a
20
member of your committee.
21
REVEREND DULIN:
22
(15:37:30)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
He was a law -- he was, I'm sorry,
Do you remember that?
Yes.
So it sounds like you had some
24
very active support within your committee to help
25
you push the ordinance forward.
�22
1
REVEREND DULIN:
2
(15:37:49)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
And I also noted that, in
4
looking at the membership of your committee, many
5
of them were affiliated with the university but
6
there were also clergymen and some local
7
businessmen.
8
good cross section of the community on your fair
9
housing committee?
Were you happy that you had a fairly
10
REVEREND DULIN:
11
(15:38:11)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, of course.
And do you think that helped
13
obtain the broad support across the community for
14
passing the ordinance?
15
REVEREND DULIN:
16
(15:38:23)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
And did the City Commission seem
18
to recognize that fact and that helped influence
19
them?
20
REVEREND DULIN:
21
(15:38:37)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Now, once the ordinance passed
23
in July, 1967, obviously things didn't change
24
overnight, but did you have a positive feeling
25
that the ordinance would eventually bring about
�23
1
positive change?
2
REVEREND DULIN:
3
(15:38:54)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Did you see any of that while
5
you were still here in Lawrence?
6
have an easier time obtaining housing close to
7
campus?
8
9
REVEREND DULIN:
No.
Did students
I was too short of
people who supported the commission and it was in
10
the dog days of August that things began to get
11
going.
12
(15:39:49)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
So change did not come right
away, even after the ordinance was passed?
15
REVEREND DULIN:
16
(15:39:57)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, were you still in Lawrence
18
when some of the violence erupted in the late
19
1960s on campus and in the city?
20
REVEREND DULIN:
21
(15:40:08)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
No, I wasn't.
Okay, when did you leave
23
Lawrence, do you recall?
24
REVEREND DULIN:
25
MRS. DULIN:
In --
(Inaudible)
�24
1
REVEREND DULIN:
2
(15:40:29)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
In, it was August, '67.
Oh, so you left almost
immediately after the ordinance passed?
5
REVEREND DULIN:
6
(15:40:34)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, did your role in that
8
process influence your decision to leave?
9
anyone, were there any people who had hard
Did
10
feelings about what you had done or was it just
11
career considerations that led you to depart?
12
13
REVEREND DULIN:
I think probably it had a
part of a mix.
14
(inaudible)
15
Yes.
16
MRS. MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT DULIN CLYATT:
17
W
e're going to pass this on to Mom.
18
(15:41:13)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
20
MRS. DULIN:
He's done pretty well, don't you
21
22
think?
MR. ARNOLD:
He's done wonderfully, and the
23
information we are getting is very useful.
This
24
is -- he's filling in some blanks that we weren't
25
able to get from other people so this is really
�25
1
2
wonderful.
MRS. DULIN:
Oh, that's good.
There was,
3
there were just basic problems that I was not
4
involved with but he realized there was something
5
going on with the campus ministers and it was, and
6
the churches, and I don't think it was connected
7
with fair housing and they all of a sudden decided
8
they were going to eliminate all of the four
9
campus ministers and Dad was the youngest one that
10
came into the thing and he tried to find a job as
11
a campus minister through the U.C.C. [United
12
Church of Christ] where he used to be but there
13
was nothing ready at that point and so there was a
14
church in Massachusetts that wanted him and so we
15
had to move quickly, because we didn't have any
16
choice.
17
(15:42:43)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
19
MRS. DULIN:
There were things happening at,
20
in the campus and there was a lot of things around
21
(indiscernible) the town that is always under the
22
surface and churches were not, you know, our
23
churches were white and you had the black churches
24
by themselves and south of us were the Indians, so
25
it was a family that, I mean, the Lawrence family
�26
1
thing is that they were taking care of each other
2
but they had never integrated and, really, and it
3
took this joy here in Wilmington at this point in
4
our lives to have neighbors and friends of all
5
races, it's just lovely here.
6
(15:43:39)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
8
MRS. DULIN:
But the big thing was that there
9
was a lot of tension going through all of this and
10
they wouldn't seek it out, it was just coming very
11
slowly.
12
(15:43:56)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes, I wondered if even
14
if it wasn't Reverend Dulin's direct role in
15
playing such a visible role in fair housing that
16
created pressure to leave, but I know some of the
17
people that I have interviewed suggested that
18
there was even maybe within the church community
19
some of the more conservative members were
20
becoming unhappy with the active role that some of
21
the ministers and even other church members were
22
taking in pursuing social action issues and I
23
wondered if maybe just that kind of general
24
opposition may have influenced it.
25
MRS. DULIN:
The whole country was like that,
�27
1
and the other part was where we were from in Texas
2
it was open, you know, it wasn't under the surface
3
and it was a real fight between churches and
4
schools and all kinds of things, but Lawrence was
5
not doing that that much and so it was a relief
6
for us when we came into it (indiscernible) so you
7
were able to get a fair housing bill.
8
(15:45:17)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
10
MRS. DULIN:
I think that people were doing
11
12
13
Now, --
pretty well considering all that was there.
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Tom, this is
Elaine.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
15
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
16
a little bit.
17
conflict in Lawrence.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
I want to jump in
There's always a town-gown kind of
Right, absolutely.
And I think that
20
at that particular point the churches were
21
becoming more and more nervous about the unrest on
22
campus.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
25
Right.
And for whatever
reason deciding to discontinue the campus
�28
1
appointments from the different churches that were
2
involved happened about then, so we were caught up
3
in that.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
5
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
We were caught in
6
the churches being really nervous about the
7
conflict that was increasing on campus.
8
(15:46:05)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And of course that
10
conflict would continue to build until really in
11
1969 and 1970 it actually broke out into, you
12
know, violence in Lawrence, which was occurring
13
all over the country, but --
14
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
15
(indiscernible)
16
MRS. DULIN:
17
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Right.
(indiscernible)
Yes.
We stayed
18
very tied in to Lawrence and Dad was actually the
19
chaplain for the Midwestern Music and Art Camp for
20
years.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
22
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
We kind of stayed
23
in contact with the Lawrence area, and of course I
24
went back to school there, my husband was born
25
there.
I mean, we have deep roots in the Lawrence
�29
1
area.
2
(15:46:51)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, very good.
Yes, one thing
4
I wanted to ask, you know, Reverend Dulin had
5
mentioned that when you all came to Lawrence you
6
really didn't see too much open conflict, but I
7
assume the discrimination against
8
African-Americans in Lawrence was pretty apparent
9
from everything we have researched and read about.
10
You know, there was segregation in, not just in
11
housing but also issues with employment and to
12
some extent issues with access to things like
13
swimming pools.
14
obvious or was it a little bit more subtle in
15
Lawrence than say it had maybe been in Texas or
16
other parts of the south?
17
REVEREND DULIN:
Was that kind of segregation
Yes, I think that it was not
18
quite as rampant, but there were incidents of
19
violence that needed to be (indiscernible) and I
20
got involved in that.
21
(15:48:13)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Did you get involved at all,
23
Reverend Dulin, in the swimming pool issue?
As
24
early as 1960 there had been protests over the
25
fact that African-Americans couldn't get into the
�30
1
local private swimming pool and then it wasn't
2
until late 1967 that the city finally passed a
3
bond to build a public swimming pool, an
4
integrated public swimming pool, but there were
5
several years of struggle over the swimming pool
6
issue.
Do you recall?
Were you involved in that?
7
REVEREND DULIN:
8
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
9
Yes.
Well, Dad, you may
recall it, but we moved to Lawrence in '64.
10
(15:48:56)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, right.
Were there any
12
other incidents during the time that you were here
13
in Lawrence?
14
very involved in fair housing.
15
social issues that you were involved in or other
16
incidents that you remember that you got involved
17
in trying to address?
18
I know, Reverend Dulin, you were
REVEREND DULIN:
Yes.
Were there other
There were items on
19
the, in the community that would need your
20
attention, people who objected to the
21
appropriateness of the conflict.
22
(15:50:20)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
How would you characterize the
24
environment on campus as far as opportunities for
25
African-American students and their treatment at
�31
1
2
3
K.U.?
Were there many problems on the campus?
REVEREND DULIN:
To my knowledge there were
some problems but I didn't see an outbreak.
4
(15:51:05)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
So at least at that time they
6
weren't serious issues on the campus?
One thing
7
many people have told us in interviews is a lot of
8
the violence that eventually took place on the
9
campuses, that it's difficult to look at it in
10
isolation as being related to racial issues but a
11
lot of it also was anti-war, anti-Vietnam issues
12
as well.
13
REVEREND DULIN:
14
(15:51:32)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
But at least up until the time
16
you left the campus it was fairly peaceful, would
17
you say?
18
REVEREND DULIN:
19
(15:51:45)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
were in Lawrence?
22
segregated?
Yes.
Where did you all live when you
And was your neighborhood
23
REVEREND DULIN:
24
(indiscernible)
25
REVEREND DULIN:
No.
No.
�32
1
2
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
lived?
3
REVEREND DULIN:
4
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
5
Remember where we
Yes, we lived on -Princeton
Boulevard.
6
REVEREND DULIN:
7
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
8
REVEREND DULIN:
9
then (indiscernible).
10
MRS. DULIN:
Princeton Boulevard?
Yes.
Princeton Boulevard, and
We moved from the, from, we
11
built a house on Princeton Boulevard, the first
12
one, way back when it was so far away from the
13
campus we were spending a lot of gas going back
14
and forth, so we moved to Sunset (indiscernible),
15
2019 Sunset Drive, where (indiscernible) go to
16
school and to the campus and so we were there
17
(indiscernible) the time.
18
(15:52:54)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, and I assume that
20
neighborhood where you lived was an all-white
21
neighborhood.
22
your neighbors about how they felt about
23
segregated housing and whether they would be happy
24
having African-Americans move into the
25
neighborhood?
Did you ever have discussions with
�33
1
MRS. DULIN:
No, because where we were were
2
all usually professors and grad students and I had
3
a piano studio and most of my students were from
4
the law school, I had about 20 to 28 students
5
there, and we were very close to the elementary
6
school there and so people could walk from the
7
school to my house, (inaudible) but most of it
8
just was, most of the church, at the church and in
9
the studio were connected to the university and
10
completely white.
I don't think, there was no
11
African families in, at our church and so it was
12
really more of a white community but it was
13
connected with professors who were very, very busy
14
with their families and (indiscernible), but we
15
didn't really talk about this with our neighbors
16
that I would think about, but I just, I don't
17
remember.
18
(15:54:36)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Right.
My best friend at
21
Hillcrest -- was it Hillcrest Grade School?
22
Was a young woman who was adopted who was Native
23
American and I saw her suffer all kinds of
24
discrimination all the time.
25
(15:54:57)
Yes.
�34
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
2
MRS. DULIN:
(indiscernible) she would, when
3
we were there that didn't happen.
4
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
5
MRS. DULIN:
6
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
7
MRS. DULIN:
8
Yes, it did, mom.
It did?
Okay.
I was there.
She was one of my
students, too.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
10
MRS. DULIN:
I didn't know about this.
11
(15:55:11)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, it's interesting, as we
13
researched some of the groups that were involved
14
in pushing for fair housing, the League of Women
15
Voters, obviously the Fair Housing Coordinating
16
Committee, but there was a very large university
17
community presence in all these organizations.
18
MRS. DULIN:
Right.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
So the university and its
20
community definitely played an important role in
21
pushing for social change, but one interesting
22
observation that Phyllis Sapp made when I
23
interviewed her and her husband was that
24
university people not only came from more diverse
25
backgrounds but also they lived in a somewhat more
�35
1
insulated community and therefore they could be in
2
favor of change without having to worry too much
3
about their job being put at risk or their friends
4
ostracizing them.
5
MRS. DULIN:
6
That's Phyllis.
7
(15:56:15)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Did you find that to be true?
Yes, yes, that's pretty good.
Yes, whereas if you were a local
9
businessman who maybe favored fair housing if you
10
spoke out publicly you could lose customers, you
11
could have friends who would ostracize you, so
12
they were taking a bigger risk, people like Glenn
13
Kappelman, who was the realtor, and Dick Raney,
14
who was then the mayor and was very much in favor
15
of fair housing but he was a drug store owner.
16
REVEREND DULIN:
17
(15:56:49)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
I remember that.
Well, we are getting close to
19
the one-hour point and I know I have taken up a
20
lot of your time so I don't want to take this on
21
too much longer, and you have been very helpful in
22
sharing some information, but I just wanted to
23
give you, Reverend Dulin and Mrs. Dulin, the
24
opportunity, if there's anything we haven't talked
25
about that you think is important to share, is
�36
1
there anything else you can think of that you'd
2
like to share with me that I haven't asked about?
3
4
MRS. DULIN:
You might put Elaine's name on
your tape here.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I --
6
MRS. DULIN:
Her name was Elaine Dulin
7
Clyatt.
The Clyatts were big members of the
8
Methodist Church downtown and so all of that is
9
connected with all of our history, but we enjoyed
10
being in Lawrence, we just would not want, we
11
didn't want to leave, but it was really a
12
wonderful place to be and so that's why I think
13
that all of us came back so many times.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
15
MRS. DULIN:
We still have relatives, Elaine,
16
her husband's aunt and so we still have
17
connections there.
18
that were there, it's just lovely.
19
(15:58:20)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
I still enjoy all the people
Lawrence is still a wonderful
21
town.
I've lived here for about 11 years and of
22
course those of us who are relative newcomers look
23
at Lawrence as a very progressive university town,
24
and of course it has its free state history, but I
25
don't think many people, if you weren't around at
�37
1
that time, realize how segregated Lawrence was in
2
the 1940s, '50s, and '60s, and often are shocked
3
to hear about it.
4
MRS. DULIN:
5
(15:58:55)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, I'm sure that's true.
I will be sending you all what
7
are called release forms, actually the city will
8
probably be sending them to you, Scott Wagner, who
9
I'm working with at the city, but to have you sign
10
those forms, which just gives the city permission
11
to use this interview for promoting fair housing,
12
and also we are going to archive the interviews at
13
the Spencer Research Library at K.U., so he'll
14
have a form for each of you to sign, and then we
15
are also going to transcribe the interview, and I
16
will make sure the transcriptionist knows everyone
17
who spoke, including you, Elaine, and I appreciate
18
your perspectives as well.
19
Is there anything else you can think of?
20
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
21
22
Is it possible for
us to get a copy of that transcription?
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, absolutely.
I can e-mail
23
it to you.
I'll be reviewing it after she sees
24
it, and I can also try to e-mail you an audio file
25
if it's not too large, or I can send you a copy of
�38
1
the audio file on a thumb drive or a disk or
2
something.
3
4
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Yes, that would be
great.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
6
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Dad has 13
7
grandchildren and I just would like to share it
8
with them.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I think that would be
10
wonderful, so I will definitely make sure that you
11
get copies of both the transcript and the audio
12
file.
13
14
15
MRS. DULIN:
this.
God bless you, Tom, for doing
It is a beautiful thing for us.
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, thank you for
16
participating.
You know, Reverend Dulin's name
17
came up in almost every one of my interviews for
18
the important role he played and I think that the
19
historical record wouldn't be complete without
20
getting his perspective, so I thank all of you,
21
and him in particular, very much for
22
participating.
23
REVEREND DULIN:
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Thank you very much.
Okay.
Thank you, sir, and
thanks again for what you did for Lawrence in your
�39
1
short time here.
2
MRS. DULIN:
Thank you, Tom.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
All right, thank you.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dulin, Richard
Dulin, Barbara
Clyatt, Elaine Dulin
Location
The location of the interview
This interview was recorded over the telephone.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Richard and Barbara Dulin
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Richard and Barbara Dulin and their daughter Elaine Dulin Clyatt; Reverend Richard Dulin was the chairman of the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on February 20, 2017, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dulin, Richard
Dulin, Barbara
Clyatt, Elaine Dulin
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2/20/2017
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/rev-richard-mrs-dulin-20-feb-2017-22017-1010-am?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DulinInterview022017.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1964 - 1967
Lawrence (Kan.)
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/345e053f38e33e3fabecda209a70b297.pdf
e17d547205642066381f977ab94ccf80
PDF Text
Text
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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
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50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
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Interview of Richard & Phyllis Sapp
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October 28, 2016
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MR. ARNOLD:
Today is October 28th, 2016.
I
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am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing Dr.
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Richard Sapp and Mrs. Phyllis Sapp at the Lawrence
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Public Library in Lawrence, Kansas, for the City
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of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th
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Anniversary Oral History Project.
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At the time the ordinance passed in July,
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1967, Richard was a professor on the faculty of
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the University of Kansas and Phyllis was active in
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community organizations, such as the Lawrence
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League of Women Voters.
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To start off, I would like to have both of
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you tell me a little bit about your backgrounds
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and what you were doing in Lawrence in the 1960s.
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MRS. SAPP:
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DR. SAPP:
You go ahead.
We came to Lawrence in 1957 when I
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got a position with the University of Kansas in
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the Physics and Astronomy Department, and that was
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just at the end of the era when Wilt Chamberlain
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had made some inroads in the civil rights areas by
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the sheer size of his presence, such as
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integrating barber shops and movie theaters.
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A big issue right after we came was the
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swimming pool.
There was a private pool called
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the Jayhawk Plunge down on Sixth and Florida
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Street and it was open only to members, white
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members was understood, and an attempt was made to
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try to integrate that pool and instead it was
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closed and so the city was doing without a public
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pool at that time, and later there was a temporary
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one down in the south part of town, before the
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swimming pool complex was constructed downtown.
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I was invited to participate in the picketing
and protesting at the Plunge but I had just
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arrived in town and didn't have a firm grasp on
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the local politics by any means and I also felt I
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didn't have any tenure at the university and I
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just didn't want to stick my head out at that
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time.
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footing and then I could participate in these
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things that I wanted to.
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Later, of course, I was on more firm
MRS. SAPP:
Well, I came because Dick came.
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We'd just been married a few months before but we
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knew each other at Ohio State University, where I
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did my undergraduate work and Dick did his
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graduate work, and I was very happy to move west
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from Ohio.
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parents had come from South Dakota so I always
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felt that going west was best and happy to move
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out here.
I grew up in northern Illinois and my
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I had been to Lawrence once with a group from
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Ohio State coming to a conference so I liked the
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place, and I liked the fact that it was near a
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city, that's been a big advantage, or two cities
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actually.
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But Dick's right about the swimming pool.
I
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don't remember it was members only because I
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actually went there with a neighbor or friend
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asked me one time and I wondered about this, but I
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decided I would go and see what it was like.
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Wasn't that much, that great a swimming pool, for
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that matter.
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So after that we did not participate in it,
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and we didn't go to any pool unless it was open to
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the public until the one downtown was opened.
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would not join a swimming pool, and our children
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remember that.
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or one of their early lessons in, you know,
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everyone needs to have access to these public,
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what should be public, like the pool.
We
It was one of their first lessons
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(9:58:13)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And I'll come back to
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the swimming pool, I've got a question about that
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later, particularly in what involvement you may
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have had in the effort to get the bond issue
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finally passed after the Fair Housing Ordinance
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passed the same year but later.
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When you arrived in Lawrence in those early
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years how did the racial environment, the climate
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of racial relations strike you, how did the
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degrees of discrimination, segregation strike you
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as compared to what you may have been used to and
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the attitudes that you had grown up with in Ohio?
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MRS. SAPP:
I moved to Ohio when I was about
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14.
I don't -- it was pretty usual -- well, no,
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it was worse than in northern -- in northern
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Illinois, very near Wisconsin border, there wasn't
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much said about, at least about black/white kinds
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of things.
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against Jews, to a small extent anyway, at least
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talk about it, but not, I don't think excluded, at
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least not from anything I knew about it.
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course, I was pretty young and I didn't know about
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things like country clubs and that kind of thing.
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So when we moved to Columbus, southern Ohio,
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I was taken aback by some of the segregation, and
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particularly in our high school.
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fellow who was very active and well liked.
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went on a senior class trip to Washington, D.C.,
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and he was not allowed to eat in the cafeteria
I know there was discrimination
Of
We had a black
We
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where we were eating.
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I went into the cafeteria.
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what to do at that point, because I remember one
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of the teachers staying out with him and I don't
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know where they went to find some food.
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shocked me, so that was part of the whole thing.
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(10:00:32)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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I've always regretted that
Right.
I guess I didn't know
That
Richard, how did you
find Lawrence compared to your experiences growing
up?
DR. SAPP:
Actually my small hometown in
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southwestern Ohio was very much like Lawrence when
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we came.
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. SAPP:
Okay.
It was understood that blacks had
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to use certain facilities and not others, certain
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area in the theater where they could sit but not
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others.
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to me and I didn't like it, I never liked it, but
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I had never really taken any public stands against
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it up to this time.
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(10:01:07)
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MR. ARNOLD:
All that kind of thing was very familiar
Right.
To describe Lawrence a
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little bit, what you found once you came here, you
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have already mentioned the inroads that Wilt
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Chamberlain and some of the K.U. athletes made and
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also the swimming pool issue.
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of discrimination or segregation in Lawrence
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struck you at that time as being, you know,
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particularly objectionable?
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segregation quite obvious?
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MRS. SAPP:
What other aspects
Was housing
Well, it certainly was there.
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was very much so, fairly obvious, I think, yes,
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and I think there was still some segregation in
It
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the theater.
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really, or in just, in some of the public places
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like this, because I think with Wilt coming they
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got the theaters desegregated.
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Well, I don't know in the theaters
The restaurants, I'm not really -- well, we
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didn't have that many restaurants.
In fact,
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Lawrence was really, when we came here Lawrence
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had something like 27,000 people, which to me was
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very small, because I'd always lived in bigger
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cities, and I don't know, the kind of restaurants
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that were here, I don't really know too much about
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that.
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But, yes, and we kept hearing about
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segregation, and this Lawrence League for the
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Practice of Democracy had started working against
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segregation and toward integration and what could
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be done there.
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very indignant to see people not able to buy homes
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and such.
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It made a person, well, it made me
Now, this is getting toward the ordinance and
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what we did for that so maybe Dick wants to speak
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before I do.
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DR. SAPP:
Well, I was just going to comment
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that this is leading right into our first kind of
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involvement.
We think it was somebody at the
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League of Women Voters who told us about a program
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of white people visiting in negro people's homes
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in Lawrence and talking about their experience
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with housing segregation, so we went to one of
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these meetings at James and Elizabeth Chieks'
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house, C-h-i-e-k-s.
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MRS. SAPP:
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DR. SAPP:
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MRS. SAPP:
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Near the hospital.
It was over in that area -That's where they could buy a
house.
DR. SAPP:
-- near the hospital, and there
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were six or eight of us visiting there and we
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talked about their experience in trying to buy a
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house where they saw a realtor and he told them
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where he could show them a house in Lawrence and
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it was only in areas where black people already
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lived, essentially redlining.
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Right, right.
Yes.
Yes, that's what we've heard.
It's been described by several people to us.
DR. SAPP:
So that really fired up my feeling
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of this is very unfair and play along to our other
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activities, I think.
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(10:04:39)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Right.
How about your own
neighborhood where you all lived?
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DR. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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MRS. SAPP:
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(10:04:45)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Was it --
All white.
All-white neighborhood?
All white.
Yes, pretty much the surveys
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that were done at the time showed that most of the
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neighborhoods were either --
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DR. SAPP:
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MRS. SAPP:
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DR. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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North Lawrence, East Lawrence, -The hospital.
-- some in the northwest, -Right, kind of Pinckney, --
-- around Pinckney.
-- West Lawrence neighborhood,
but even within those neighborhoods usually it was
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confined to a block or two --
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DR. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
4
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Yes.
-- where they tended to be
congregated.
Any other forms of discrimination that were
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apparent?
Employment discrimination?
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to a store downtown would you most likely find
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only white clerks in most of the stores or --
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MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
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(10:05:19)
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MR. ARNOLD:
If you went
Yes, I would say so.
What would you say, before I get
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into -- and I want to talk to you about not only
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what motivated you all to get involved, which
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you've already touched on, but also talk about
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kind of what motivated other people that you
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recall, but what do you think were the major
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impediments to bringing about changes to those
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things?
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you to name names, but groups or local interests
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that were opposed to change that you can remember?
I mean, were there, and I don't expect
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MRS. SAPP:
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DR. SAPP:
Oh yes.
Well, about this time in the
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middle '60s was when there was a fair housing bill
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in the Kansas Legislature and people in Lawrence
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were amazed to find that the fight against that
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bill was led by realtors from Lawrence.
Four,
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four agencies sent people over there to testify
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against it.
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probably not important anymore.
I could name some names but it's
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(10:06:20)
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MR. ARNOLD:
You can probably find those
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names in the newspaper if you wanted to look for
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them.
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DR. SAPP:
Yes.
And so, again, that was
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motivation for us to try to do something better
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here, since we were not going to get it on the
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state level apparently.
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(10:06:40)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
So would you say, and
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I'm jumping a little bit ahead, but was part of
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the motivation of moving forward to pursue a local
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ordinance the disappointment --
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MRS. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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wasn't taking action?
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DR. SAPP:
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MRS. SAPP:
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DR. SAPP:
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MRS. SAPP:
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Yes.
-- with the fact that the state
Yes.
Definitely.
Definitely.
The Human Relations Commission
had been formed, what, around, around '64?
You
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probably have the date better than I.
MR. ARNOLD:
Little bit earlier than that, I
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think about a year after the swimming pool, '61,
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'62 time frame.
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MRS. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Okay.
But they really didn't become a
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very active organization I would say until
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probably '64 and after.
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MRS. SAPP:
All right, yes.
So people there
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took up the cause, and the League of Women Voters
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had helped or encouraged the Human Relations
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Commission to get started, and I just don't
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remember who specifically set up this program
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where we'd go and visit at the Chieks' or at
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someone's house and hear firsthand what their
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experiences with housing were but I think it
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probably arose out of the study that the League of
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Women did.
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research and study an issue, will take a stand on
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issues, not on political candidates, so I can't
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say exactly but -- and it was a small -- it wasn't
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that huge a number of people did this but I think
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there were several groups that --
They always, and they still do,
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MR. ARNOLD:
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MRS. SAPP:
Right.
I can actually --
-- did this and it just was so
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powerful to hear people actually, you know, say I,
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you know, I was not allowed to buy a house
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anywhere but here or here or here, and they had
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the money.
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necessarily, this was people who were what we
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might say middle class economically and they could
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have afforded a house in other areas.
This was not low cost housing
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MR. ARNOLD:
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MRS. SAPP:
Right.
I also, this probably should come
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later, but I will say that in our neighborhood on
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our street we had a couple of black families move
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in after, after the ordinance.
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(10:08:59)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Well, that's good, because we've
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tried to get a sense in some of the interviews as
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to whether people saw change come about.
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often change comes about slowly, but that is
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something I'd like to raise with you to kind of
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get a sense of how apparent change was after the
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ordinance was passed.
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Yes, actually in the probably '64, '65 time
frame the NAACP did a housing survey --
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MRS. SAPP:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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I know
Yes.
-- and they found that of all
the new neighborhoods built since the early 1950s,
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not a single black family resided in any of them
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and I think then at the time the ordinance was
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passed somebody else had done a survey and found
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by then there was only one African-American family
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in all those neighborhoods, so it hadn't changed
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much in that time.
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The United Church Women of Lawrence did a
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housing survey and I think did some housing visits
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and gathered signatures in support of fair
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housing, the League of Women Voters I know did
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their own study, so there was quite a bit of
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interest and activity.
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Now, we've already touched on it a little
14
bit, but a group that actually started looking
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into it even earlier was the League for the
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Promotion of Democracy.
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involved in that organization?
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MRS. SAPP:
Were the two of you
We were not members of that
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Lawrence League for the Practice of Democracy.
We
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did know about it.
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moved here and I think we were just getting into
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the community and into the university and what was
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going on and that, then into the League of Women
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Voters, which had many of the same members in
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these groups, so we were not actually members but
We were told about it when we
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we certainly supported -- they were the very first
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grassroots, I would say.
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(10:10:41)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
They actually started in
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1946 and the story is in their own little history
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that they wrote that it came about because an
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African-American World War II veteran had come
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back to Lawrence after fighting in the war and was
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ejected from a movie theater in Lawrence because
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he wouldn't sit in the colored-only section and
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that upset enough people that they formed that
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group to start fighting discrimination.
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You have talked a little bit about what
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motivated the two of you to get involved in these
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types of groups and to work on bringing about
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these kind of changes.
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other people who were involved and what kind of
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motivated them in general and was there pretty
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significant involvement of the university
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community in that?
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some of your colleagues and --
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MRS. SAPP:
23
DR. SAPP:
24
MRS. SAPP:
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the university.
Can you kind of generalize
Were they particularly active,
Yes.
Yes, yes, I would say.
I'd say a big part of it was from
University people didn't worry
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about the customers; they had the customers, the
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students.
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jobs, or losing friends, for that matter.
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there would be some but, you know, it tended, I'm
5
going to reinforce what a lot of people think,
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that university people, people who work and teach
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at universities are liberal and -- at least in
8
these views.
They didn't worry about losing their
9
(10:12:08)
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MR. ARNOLD:
11
MRS. SAPP:
12
MR. ARNOLD:
I mean,
Right, and generally -I would say so.
-- far more diverse because
13
they've come from all parts of the country so they
14
have a different, broader world view.
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MRS. SAPP:
Yes, this is very true.
As I
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said, my experience of like, I don't -- I'm sure
17
where I grew up in Rockford, Illinois, there was
18
no -- blacks were able to sit anywhere in the
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theater.
20
segregated, so all this was a surprise; not a
21
surprise but, you know, just foreign to me,
22
different.
23
I don't remember a thing about being
DR. SAPP:
Another source of my motivation
24
was that in the middle '60s we had become members
25
of First Methodist Church and I became first a
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member and then the chair of what they called the
2
Committee on Social Concerns and so I was sort of
3
casting around for a direction to lead some
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activity in the area, in that area and fair
5
housing popped up on my horizon partly through
6
that, so when I went to Fair Housing Coordinating
7
Committee I was recognized as a representative of
8
a fairly substantial church in town.
9
(10:13:32)
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MR. ARNOLD:
11
Okay.
Very good.
So that was
kind of your entree into that organization?
12
DR. SAPP:
Yes.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Now I was going to ask you about
14
the churches, because we've also found that there
15
was quite a bit of activism coming out of a number
16
of churches and certain churches in particular.
17
Plymouth Congregational Church had a Social Action
18
Committee, I think the Unitarian Church had one,
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--
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DR. SAPP:
Yes.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
-- and so -Unitarians were active.
So would you say that the
24
churches were very much kind of a, provided a
25
foundation of support, in addition to really
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university people, in trying to bring about
2
change?
3
DR. SAPP:
Yes, and I imagine some of the
4
names on this list here are people connected with
5
the black churches in town.
6
of the members of the Fair Housing Coordinating
7
Committee from 1966]
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MRS. SAPP:
[referring to a list
Right, right.
Well, I would also say, though,
10
about churches, there were a number of people who
11
I'm sure were not as enthusiastic about it.
12
did not have everybody agree on things in the
13
church and we really didn't stay with -- well, we
14
stayed with the church for awhile but got a
15
little, not so happy with some of the attitudes.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
DR. SAPP:
We
Okay.
I can illustrate the way pressures
18
could be brought to bear to people who didn't have
19
protections.
20
of a savings and loan on Ninth Street, it was
21
Anchor Savings & Loan, his wife wrote a letter to
22
the editor in the Journal-World in support of fair
23
housing and some of these realtors came to his
24
office and said shut your wife up or you've lost
25
our business.
The young man who was local manager
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(10:15:31)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
Wow.
That's an eye-opening
story.
4
DR. SAPP:
Yes.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
I actually heard a similar story
6
from one of the other people I interviewed about a
7
visit that he actually personally got by people
8
who didn't like some of his activities.
9
Would you say, then, following up on that,
10
that there was, towards the university people,
11
towards especially the ones who were involved in
12
bringing about change through the churches, that
13
there was a degree of resentment among certain
14
segments?
15
DR. SAPP:
Certainly resistance.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Resistance?
Resistance.
And who did that primarily come
19
from?
20
but who did it come from and kind of what were
21
their motives in fighting change, other than just
22
an acceptance of this is the way it's been, don't
23
rock the boat?
24
25
And again, don't mention names necessarily,
MRS. SAPP:
Well, they were afraid of losing
business, business people, people who own
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2
restaurants or stores or things like this.
And what else would you say?
I would say
3
just like this.
4
up I thought rather specious arguments, but it was
5
important to them.
6
somebody else would get the business if they gave
7
in to this, and one of the very valuable things
8
about having a law we found was that the, and the
9
realtors found was that they could say "This is
10
the law" to people who were selling homes, you
11
know, "You don't have a choice of who you sell
12
to," and they found that actually it worked in
13
their favor.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MRS. SAPP:
The realtors themselves brought
They felt, I'm sure they felt
Right.
We heard that from a man who had
16
been very much against the law and within a couple
17
years was very much for it.
18
(10:17:36)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
Do you recall any, as you started getting
That's an interesting point.
21
involved and working on the fair housing issue do
22
you recall any particular individuals who played
23
kind of important leadership roles, who stood out
24
as having, you know, taken on particularly
25
prominent roles in helping to mobilize support?
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MRS. SAPP:
Well, Glenn Kappelman, who was a,
2
I know you've heard of him, a realtor, and he was
3
very much for equal rights, for fair housing.
4
stayed with the realty board and worked from the
5
inside, this is how he put it, and we found that
6
that was very valuable.
7
quitting and saying, "Well, I don't like your
8
attitudes," he worked -- Glenn was very good at
9
talking with people and he had patience.
He
Instead of, you know,
Where I
10
would tend to say some, become quite indignant, he
11
would be much more patient with it, so I think
12
Glenn was one of the most valuable people that we
13
had working with this, because he was involved
14
with the business community.
15
member of the Chamber of Commerce, all that kind
16
of thing.
I'm sure he was a
17
Who else, Dick, would you say?
18
DR. SAPP:
I think Reverend Dick Dulin was
19
useful as chair because he was pretty much not
20
subject to any pressures, although he was only
21
associate pastor and so forth, but he was, as I
22
recall, he was a very calm person and kind of kept
23
us focused and moving toward objectives and he was
24
a good leader.
25
(10:19:39)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
Since you bring up his
2
name, and he, of course, was the youth, or I think
3
the campus minister at Plymouth Congregational
4
Church, so you're right, he wasn't necessarily
5
under any particular pressure from, even maybe so
6
much from the congregation itself, but as the head
7
of the Fair Housing Coordinating Committee he
8
obviously played an important role in that group,
9
but describe the Fair Housing Coordinating
10
Committee to me, how you recall that it came
11
about, who the members were, what organizations
12
sort of supported it and were involved with it, as
13
best you can recall.
14
DR. SAPP:
We were not involved with it at
15
its inception so we don't know about that at all.
16
The list of people who were members in 1966 pretty
17
much identifies the groups who were being
18
represented there, if you know who the people are.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
Well, okay, [reading from the
21
1966 list of Fair Housing Coordinating Committee
22
members,] Ann Moore, Tom Moore was with the K.U.
23
Y.
24
had been involved with the YWCA when we came here,
25
the campus one, and then it became a joint one and
I don't think we even called it YMCA, YWCA.
I
�23
1
Tom was hired with that, and Tom and Ann were
2
Quakers, Friends, and with all the attitudes that
3
go along and very good in the community; again,
4
patient, kind people, working that way.
5
Reverend Louis Branch was black.
6
DR. SAPP:
7
With the church at New York, Ninth
and New York, Saint --
8
MRS. SAPP:
9
DR. SAPP:
Oh, St. Luke's?
St. Luke's.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
DR. SAPP:
12
MRS. SAPP:
Okay.
Yes.
That was a black church, and
13
that's still, of course, going on.
The churches
14
are still very much black or white I'd say.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right.
16
MRS. SAPP:
17
DR. SAPP:
They were members of that church.
18
MRS. SAPP:
And Ben Hanan was pastor of the
The Stanfields were black.
19
First Christian --
20
DR. SAPP:
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
Dorothy Adams was the wife of a professor at
First Christian.
-- Church, and his wife.
23
K.U. and I'm not sure what other things she did
24
but she was very active in the community so -- and
25
Jean Shaw was, too.
Ed Shaw was at K.U.
�24
1
We women who didn't have paying jobs did a
2
lot of League of Women Voter type things and other
3
work.
4
5
I don't remember Jim Griffiths.
Do you,
Dick, --
6
DR. SAPP:
7
MRS. SAPP:
No.
-- a reverend?
Mike Marr was at
8
the university and was very active in these kind
9
of things.
10
"Petey" Cerf, Ann, Mrs. Raymond Cerf, Ann
11
Cerf was involved with all kinds of things in
12
this.
13
(10:22:58)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Tell me a little bit about her.
15
Her name comes up quite a bit as a real leader in
16
the early '60s.
17
MRS. SAPP:
Well, she had a forceful
18
personality.
I wouldn't say that she got mad --
19
well, I'm sure she did get mad about things but
20
she didn't show it in that way, but she was
21
forceful and when she talked about something you
22
listened, you heard.
23
most -- well, I don't know that most people did
24
but most people who were on her side or felt she
25
was on their side.
I liked her tremendously and
�25
1
She got a lot of things started and done and
2
she did have some financial, was in a financial
3
position to put money toward some things, too, so
4
she got a number of things going in town.
5
(10:23:52)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
10
MRS. SAPP:
She certainly had been here
awhile when we came and I don't know when they
came.
Her husband --
11
DR. SAPP:
12
MRS. SAPP:
13
Was at the university.
Yes, taught -- wasn't he a violin
--
14
DR. SAPP:
15
MRS. SAPP:
16
DR. SAPP:
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
THE SPEAKER:
19
MRS. SAPP:
20
(10:24:13)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
23
Had she been a long-time
Lawrence resident, do you know?
8
9
Good.
Musician.
Musician.
Raymond Cerf.
Yes.
Cello.
Cello.
Okay.
So she was involved in
community organizations?
MRS. SAPP:
And her son, William Dan, is
24
involved in things now, more financially than
25
anything else right now.
I see his name on
�26
1
various things.
I don't really know him.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
DR. SAPP:
Right.
He writes, or at least he was
4
writing trenchant letters to the editor of the
5
Journal-World.
6
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, yes.
Well, "Petey" died a
7
number of years ago, I can't tell you when, it's
8
just that she's still a presence.
9
(10:24:43)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
As I said, her name has
11
come up.
12
leadership role, spurring action by a number of
13
people.
14
15
Fred Six said that she played an early
MRS. SAPP:
live.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
She also lived near where we
Okay.
Which meant I saw something of
her, I guess.
19
Marion Boyle, her husband was in the Art
20
Department at K.U. and didn't know her real well.
21
I think she worked at Haskell for awhile and then
22
at K.U., too, with students, with students needing
23
tutoring, needing help, students who were
24
disadvantaged, I guess we might say.
25
Howard Rosenfeld.
�27
1
DR. SAPP:
2
MRS. SAPP:
History professor.
Yes.
And Lee Ketzel, who has
3
been involved in all kinds of things, I'm sure
4
you've come upon her name, and she's someone you
5
could interview I'm sure.
6
other day to see what she remembered about League
7
of Women Voters.
8
community.
9
I talked with her the
She's doing a lot still in the
Ada Swineford.
10
DR. SAPP:
11
MRS. SAPP:
At the university.
(indiscernible) and she, yes, she
12
was at the university but she left to go to
13
Washington State so she didn't do a whole lot.
14
15
16
And I don't know Reverend John Ayres, that
doesn't -DR. SAPP:
I think the list makes pretty
17
clear that the religious institutions and the
18
university provided a lot of the --
19
(10:26:17)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, exactly.
And then so
21
really the university community, the church
22
community, and then groups like the League of
23
Women Voters, United Church Women, which I'm sure
24
there was a lot of involvement of people among
25
those groups, the NAACP, --
�28
1
MRS. SAPP:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
Commission at --
4
Yes.
MRS. SAPP:
Now Dorothy Keltz, --
She was on the Human Relations
But I don't know, her husband
5
wasn't at the university I don't think.
See, all
6
these people who had to watch what they said and
7
did because of business were, I don't know whether
8
you say --
9
DR. SAPP:
10
MRS. SAPP:
Harold Keltz.
11
DR. SAPP:
Hal Keltz, yes.
12
MRS. SAPP:
13
DR. SAPP:
He was not at the university but
15
MRS. SAPP:
And she was very active so that
16
would be somebody --
17
(10:27:05).
18
MR. ARNOLD:
14
19
I forget what Keltz' job was.
I don't --
Hal Keltz.
--
Right, and I think she was
actually on the Human Relations Commission --
20
MRS. SAPP:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, she was.
-- at the time the ordinance
22
came up.
She was in charge of their little
23
housing subcommittee so she was probably very --
24
MRS. SAPP:
Ah, I know that she was involved.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
-- (indiscernible) so obviously
�29
1
2
she had been involved with housing.
MRS. SAPP:
That would be very interesting to
3
know what her husband did just in light of this,
4
you know, was there pressure.
5
(10:27:26)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
she felt any pressure.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
that out.
11
store]
12
I --
-- didn't see any pressure, that
8
10
I certainly --
-- can probably go back and find
[Hal Keltz owned the Lawrence Surplus
Just for the record for the transcribist, I
13
just want, because I can't remember if we
14
mentioned it when you first started reading the
15
list, the list you just read was of members of the
16
Fair Housing Coordinating Committee in 1966.
17
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, as of April 25th, 1966.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
DR. SAPP:
20
MRS. SAPP:
Okay.
Somewhere I -Says beginning list of interested
21
persons, actually, rather than members, but
22
beginning list of interested persons, so that's
23
when it was just getting formed.
24
25
DR. SAPP:
Well, somewhere in our collection
I found a letter I had written to Dorothy Keltz
�30
1
expressing my personal opinions about the need for
2
fair housing and it's just now become apparent why
3
I wrote her on that subject.
4
(10:28:13)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Exactly.
And the other
6
interesting thing that this brings to light is,
7
and I had asked a couple people previously and
8
they just weren't sure, but was there, before the
9
Fair Housing Ordinance proposal was even brought
10
to the Human Relations Commission by the Fair
11
Housing Coordinating Committee had there been some
12
interaction between Human Relations Committee
13
members and the committee talking about this
14
beforehand, and it sounds like if she was involved
15
both in the housing --
16
17
MRS. SAPP:
I'm sure there was because there
was so much go-between --
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
-- between them.
The League of
20
Women Voters sent observers to various City
21
Commissions and committees and such and Lee Ketzel
22
was one of the observers --
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MRS. SAPP:
25
Commission.
Right.
-- of the Human Relations
�31
1
(10:28:57)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
So let me ask you why fair
3
housing, of all the, you know, employment
4
discrimination, the swimming pool issue, the
5
schools and educational opportunities, of all the
6
different things why did so many people seem to
7
coalesce at that time around the fair housing
8
issue?
9
Do you have a sense of that?
MRS. SAPP:
I think that the people who were
10
being discriminated against brought it to our
11
attention somehow, you know, that it really did,
12
this -- we were aware of it in various ways but
13
this going to the Chieks' home and having them
14
say, you know, "We could afford a house other
15
places but we were only allowed to buy over here
16
by the hospital or one of those other places."
17
was so unfair.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
So, and perhaps maybe a little
20
easier to work on than employment.
21
such a great, huge, big issue to try to do
22
something about.
23
DR. SAPP:
It
Employment is
Discrimination and segregation was
24
such a huge, massive problem, an individual needs
25
that focus, place to enter it, fair housing seemed
�32
1
like one of them but we quickly realized, you
2
know, that jobs, education, there are other very
3
important things.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
DR. SAPP:
Right.
But this was something that we
6
could address directly so that's where we focused
7
our attention.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MRS. SAPP:
10
11
Sure.
And certainly now we're realizing
so much about low cost housing.
DR. SAPP:
We, well, --
Oh, that was so interesting, it
12
came up at our recent meeting that they quickly
13
leaped beyond housing discrimination to the
14
problem of --
15
MRS. SAPP:
16
DR. SAPP:
17
The meeting at the library.
-- affordable housing, which has
been a problem in Lawrence ever since.
18
(10:30:59)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Lawrence has always
20
been, as I understand it, one of the more
21
expensive communities in Kansas.
22
MRS. SAPP:
The younger people who weren't
23
involved with this, you know, took on that, which
24
is very good.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
�33
1
MRS. SAPP:
I'm glad people are taking it on
2
because I think that's very important, too, and I
3
don't know -- well, I think the city and county
4
need to have a fund.
5
DR. SAPP:
6
Well, there seems to be some
activity in that area, so --
7
(10:31:25)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Right.
And it's actually
interesting, a thought that crossed my mind when
10
that woman brought it up at that program we
11
attended, that there is a lack of affordable
12
housing for older people and someone who is
13
disabled like her, but I can actually recall in
14
reading some of the history of the work being done
15
towards fair housing there were at least some
16
voices at that time, and I'm not sure anything
17
really got traction to work on it, but who
18
expressed concern about affordable housing,
19
particularly for older retired people and lower
20
incomes being a problem, so clearly that's been on
21
people's agendas for a very long time.
22
MRS. SAPP:
Oh, so many things came in.
23
know, the nursery schools for children or
24
prekindergarten education came up also in the
25
early '60s.
You
�34
1
Now, Jesse Milan, have you heard about --
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
4
We interviewed Jesse last
Friday.
MRS. SAPP:
Oh, wonderful.
He was just a, he
5
and his wife are terrific people, and Alversa was
6
very much involved with getting the first nursery
7
school for, what, low income, The Children's Hour,
8
it's called, and a number of us worked on it.
9
Hilda Enoch was one of the people who helped get
10
that started, and Alversa Milan, and the ideas
11
came, and the need was certainly there, so some of
12
us got to work.
13
families for --
14
DR. SAPP:
I remember interviewing people,
Jesse Milan ran for the City
15
Commission more than once.
16
strongly, tried all ways to get him on.
17
preliminary, primary voting he was always first
18
and -- but then in the general election he was
19
always fourth out of the three to be chosen.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MRS. SAPP:
We supported him
In the
Right.
It was very discouraging for them
22
and for us, for, I mean, all kinds, the people who
23
wanted him, and they eventually moved back to
24
Kansas City.
25
this.
I'm sure he told you about all of
�35
1
(10:33:46)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Jesse's role in Lawrence
3
is really fascinating, I mean, not only being the
4
first African-American teacher but then I guess he
5
became I think the assistant director of youth
6
programs for the city's park and recreation system
7
and really fought for a lot of causes but took a
8
lot of heat from people who didn't like the
9
leadership role he was playing and the kind of
10
changes he was trying to bring about and he says,
11
"I probably wouldn't have lasted as long as I did
12
in this town except for some of the students I had
13
taught and their parents, white students and white
14
parents, who kind of helped protect me," but a lot
15
of other people were very much against him.
16
MRS. SAPP:
Well, he did so much good for
17
children who had problems, physical problems.
18
would work with them.
19
kids loved him.
20
you know, he was just so good with them, so good
21
with people, such a good -- they were a wonderful
22
family and terrible that they weren't accepted.
23
mean, nowadays they would just be part of
24
everything.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
He
Well, and all kids, the
He was there with our kids and,
Yes, and they were actually
I
�36
1
themselves victims of housing discrimination when
2
they tried to move up to larger houses.
3
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, sure they were.
It's -- but
4
they helped bring about change by being who they
5
are.
6
I brought up that about the nursery schools
7
because that tied in with then, with getting into
8
housing, too.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
Right.
The whole thing, the education
part.
12
(10:35:21)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
There were certainly arguments
14
made at the time, and I think you can still make
15
very good arguments and I think Robert Casad's
16
article that was published in February of '67 made
17
the argument that to a significant extent housing
18
is the root, if you segregate everybody into one
19
area that means they all go to the same what
20
generally turn out to be substandard schools,
21
their employment opportunities tend to be limited
22
because there may not be as many jobs available in
23
that area so often integrating housing opens up
24
opportunities and so that's sometimes the best
25
place to start.
�37
1
MRS. SAPP:
That's another thing with lower
2
cost housing because of job opportunities and one
3
of the reasons that we got the bus system started,
4
and I don't think I worked on that, but to have a
5
bus system so people could get from where they do
6
live to where the jobs are, one of the most
7
important parts of having the bus system, and
8
certainly in those days that would be a, would
9
have been a problem.
10
(10:36:21)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
Well, up to now we have
12
kind of talked about background so let's jump into
13
focusing a bit more on the process for bringing
14
the Fair Housing Ordinance to the Human Relations
15
Commission and then getting it passed.
16
Do you recall, again, I think we talked about
17
this a little bit earlier, but what sort of drove
18
the timing?
19
1966, Reverend Dulin signed out a letter to
20
whoever was the mayor of Lawrence at the time
21
saying, you know, I'm representing the Fair
22
Housing Coordinating Commission, we intend to
23
bring a proposal for a Fair Housing Ordinance to
24
the Human Relations Commission, and then at their
25
first meeting in early January, in fact I think
And I think actually in December,
�38
1
probably was a record attendance, 60 some of you
2
attended that Human Relations Commission meeting
3
in which the idea for the ordinance was proposed.
4
Do you remember what drove the particular timing
5
of it in late '66 or early '67?
6
MRS. SAPP:
Well, the state ordinance was --
7
DR. SAPP:
The failure of the state ordinance
8
certainly turned up the heat.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
DR. SAPP:
12
Okay.
I think that's --
I don't know how long it took from
--
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
DR. SAPP:
Not long.
But it wasn't very long.
We sat
15
in the Fair Housing Coordinating Committee talking
16
about this and I finally said let's go to the City
17
Commission and try to get them to do something.
18
19
MRS. SAPP:
--
20
DR. SAPP:
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
23
Get something local, we can't get
six months?
Yes, yes.
And it went fast.
What, it took
July they passed the ordinance?
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes, from the 4th of
24
January it was presented to the Human Relations
25
Commission and passed in the middle of July, so
�39
1
2
that was pretty impressive.
MRS. SAPP:
And the people on the HRC, like
3
Fred [Six] and others, you know, got the
4
information and got the thing written in record
5
time I would say.
6
(10:38:11)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
And was your impression that the
8
Human Relations Commission was quite receptive to
9
the idea and --
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
you move it forward?
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
DR. SAPP:
Oh yes.
-- very interested in helping
Yes, yes.
Good.
I have a quote from that time
16
nobody else seems to remember but I do very
17
clearly.
18
younger Raney, commented when the ideas were
19
presented, he said, "You know, I've never
20
understood why realtors have any right to tell us
21
where we can live."
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
24
25
The mayor at that time, Dick Raney, the
That was at the meeting where it
was passed.
DR. SAPP:
So when he was there at the recent
meeting I reminded him about that.
He didn't
�40
1
remember it.
2
(10:39:03)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
It's interesting
4
how some things stand out in your mind and you
5
recall and for somebody else --
6
7
MRS. SAPP:
It impressed us because he was a
businessman.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
His father was a businessman, and
10
he was -- well, Jim Owens is another businessman
11
who was involved with all this.
12
shop and --
13
MR. ARNOLD:
He had the floral
Yep, and he was on the human
14
relations, had been on the City Commission but by
15
then was on the Human Relations Commission.
16
MRS. SAPP:
17
(10:39:22)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
So it comes up to the Human
19
Relations Commission in January.
20
receptive and start, obviously, researching --
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
MR. ARNOLD:
They're very
Right.
-- and drafting.
And who do you
23
recall kind of played the main role in pulling it
24
together?
25
MRS. SAPP:
Well, I'm not sure, except Fred
�41
1
was so involved, but I'm sure --
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
MRS. SAPP:
Fred Six?
Fred Six, but I'm sure, I think
4
they virtually all worked on it and I'm not sure
5
how much the coordinating committee did from then
6
on.
7
DR. SAPP:
8
MRS. SAPP:
I don't think -- I think --
9
DR. SAPP:
It seemed almost like it just
10
I don't --
needed somebody to say let's move ahead.
11
(10:40:05)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
DR. SAPP:
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I think --
Let's do it.
-- Professor Casad was involved
15
and I think he had been involved with the Fair
16
Housing Coordinating Committee, --
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
-- although when I interviewed
19
him he didn't remember being heavily involved, he
20
sort of had the impression he was kind of brought
21
in for his expertise.
22
MRS. SAPP:
I think he was, I think he came
23
in for expertise, yes.
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
Now, a --
I think he had the right, you
�42
1
know, he would, he could have been involved but
2
not everybody could be active.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
As the Human Relations
4
Commission was working on the ordinance a couple
5
other things were going on on the side that the
6
Fair Housing Coordinating Committee seemed to have
7
been orchestrating.
8
that were published in the Journal-World in
9
February.
10
DR. SAPP:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
DR. SAPP:
13
One was the seven articles
That was my idea.
Was it?
Tell me about that.
Typical university professor, get
some experts to tell about things.
14
(10:40:58)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
What was your intended audience
16
or who were you hoping to influence by those
17
articles?
18
DR. SAPP:
Anybody with a reasonable mind.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MRS. SAPP:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Were you hoping --
The thinking public.
Yes, this was hoping that kind
22
of the general public would therefore be convinced
23
that they shouldn't oppose this or was it targeted
24
at the City Commission to try and get them
25
pressure?
�43
1
DR. SAPP:
No, it was general.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
DR. SAPP:
General public?
Okay.
The last article, the one by the
4
sociologist, Jack Barr, I remember he said, "Well,
5
said it would be good if we could progress past
6
these discriminations, but," he says, "but it will
7
take a long time with human people being what they
8
are."
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
Yes.
And sadly we're still seeing
12
some truth to that.
13
DR. SAPP:
14
MRS. SAPP:
15
16
Yes.
I remember your contacting
people.
DR. SAPP:
Yes, some of the first people I
17
thought of contacting, you know, said, well, I
18
kind of, I'd like to, I have some ideas in this
19
area, but I don't think I can stick my neck out at
20
this time.
21
(10:42:02)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
That's interesting.
So you
23
actually reached out to people you thought would
24
be good candidates to author these articles and
25
some were more receptive than others?
�44
1
2
DR. SAPP:
Well, as I say, they were just,
felt like they were subject to pressures.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
But enough people did, although
5
when I go back and read them I think those are
6
learned articles, very well written, but I wonder
7
if the man on the street or the woman on the
8
street, so to speak, paid a lot of attention to
9
it.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
Because they were just written in
12
a, what would I say, a more professorial or just
13
for an audience that -- but we needed to get the
14
people who were thinking people who would say,
15
well yes, this is right, and if so and so, if, you
16
know, if enough other people are doing it I'll
17
join in.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
You know, I won't, we won't feel
20
the pressure if there are ten of us instead of one
21
or a hundred instead of ten or whatever.
22
DR. SAPP:
23
MRS. SAPP:
24
DR. SAPP:
25
And I think the -I think the --- list of authors also
illustrates the importance of the religious and
�45
1
2
educational communities within Lawrence.
MRS. SAPP:
You know, the university has had
3
such a big impact on Lawrence because say when we
4
came Lawrence was something like 27,000,
5
university had 12,000 students.
6
(10:43:31)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
9
Yes, Lawrence really was a small
town.
MRS. SAPP:
You know, the university has
10
always been a really important part of Lawrence in
11
all kinds of ways, providing employment for not
12
only people who are teaching there but all these
13
people who help in one way or another, and so it
14
has a big influence really.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
And some people view it
17
negatively, I've run into that.
18
don't anymore.
19
(10:44:02)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
I used to; I
Yes, Fred Six, when I
21
interviewed him he said that he did not think that
22
that kind of change could have been brought about
23
at the time if Lawrence wasn't a university town
24
and the diversity and more, freer thinking that
25
university people brought to challenge things that
�46
1
2
they thought were wrong.
DR. SAPP:
I remember when Leonard Clark and
3
his then fiancée, later wife, came to the first
4
meeting and told about their problems trying to
5
rent an apartment where the apartments were
6
advertised in the paper but when he went he was
7
told they were all taken but the advertisement
8
continued in the paper and I said to him, I said,
9
"Leonard, you are in a position to embarrass this
10
town."
11
(10:45:02)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
And another university couple
13
that we've been told also suffered discrimination,
14
unfortunately we've been trying to track them down
15
to interview them, but did you know Bob and Gladys
16
Sanders?
17
DR. SAPP:
18
MRS. SAPP:
Oh yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
19
their information.
20
DR. SAPP:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
DR. SAPP:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MRS. SAPP:
25
phone number?
I can get you
They moved back to Carolina -North Carolina.
-- fairly recently.
Right.
We've been trying to --
Do you have their address and
�47
1
2
MR. ARNOLD:
The city does and the city has
--
3
MRS. SAPP:
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Well, if you have their phone
5
number that will be great.
6
them at their new --
7
MRS. SAPP:
8
MR. ARNOLD:
The city has mailed
I know who does.
-- address and e-mailed them but
9
has not heard back.
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
I know who does.
Okay.
Shirley does.
If you could get that for
12
us that would be great because I'm actually, as I
13
said, I'm hoping to go back and interview Reverend
14
Dulin.
15
MRS. SAPP:
They came, they came after fair
16
housing.
They came in the '70s, didn't they?
17
the Physics Department had two black professors
18
come.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MRS. SAPP:
And
Okay.
One was a graduate, I guess he
21
was a graduate but he'd been teaching, he wasn't a
22
real young person, and they were great, you know,
23
really good people and all, and one of the black
24
families who lived on our street was Marilyn, I
25
can't say her last name, she was in --
�48
1
DR. SAPP:
Law.
2
MRS. SAPP:
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MRS. SAPP:
A law professor.
Okay.
And these people didn't stay too
5
long and you know why, because they were offered
6
more money at other places --
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MRS. SAPP:
Sure.
-- because there were not that
9
many minority professors or people qualified to
10
teach and all the universities and colleges were
11
trying to diversify their faculties, --
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
DR. SAPP:
Right, right.
-- were under pressure to, so --
Our physics (10:46:34) black
15
professor was quickly lured away by the federal
16
government for some sort of black education
17
project, paid him a lot more than what --
18
19
MRS. SAPP:
the people either.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
Yes, the pay, and you can't blame
Sure.
But the Sanders, yes, they did
stay here and Bob taught in some form of biology.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MRS. SAPP:
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Could be microbiology?
Microbiology.
Something in the biosciences.
�49
1
DR. SAPP:
2
MRS. SAPP:
3
DR. SAPP:
4
MRS. SAPP:
5
And the -Well, Gladys -Taught math.
Well, she taught math at the high
school.
6
DR. SAPP:
7
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
Yes, or junior high, high school,
8
but not at first.
They came and they lived in the
9
Sunflower duplexes, which was where we had lived
10
for several years when we first came here, and
11
they had two children, Sylvia and William.
12
think they had Sylvia when they came but William
13
was born after they came here.
14
well for a number of years and then kind of -- the
15
university grew so much we, and a lot of other
16
people, you kind of ended up in more your area,
17
like the physics, astronomy, --
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. SAPP:
I
We knew them quite
Right.
-- chemistry people and just
20
because it was so big you didn't see the other
21
people.
22
at K.U. now, the Endacott Society, and one of the
23
wonderful things about it is getting reacquainted
24
with people from all areas of the university.
25
We're very active with the retirees group
But anyway, --
�50
1
DR. SAPP:
2
own department now.
3
MRS. SAPP:
4
I don't even know everybody in my
-- Gladys would, Gladys is very
forthright, and she's a very good artist, too.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
MRS. SAPP:
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
She, yes, she's -Okay.
I hope we can get ahold
8
of them and see if they'd be willing, because
9
while I'm back in North Carolina interviewing the
10
11
Dulins I would love to do them as well.
MRS. SAPP:
That would be great.
I think
12
they would, I really do, and I will get the phone
13
number.
14
(10:48:36)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
And even if they ended up, if
16
they came a little bit later it would still be
17
interesting to see what their experience was post
18
Fair Housing Ordinance as compared to pre Fair
19
Housing Ordinance.
20
21
22
23
24
25
MRS. SAPP:
I'm not sure when, I thought it
was -MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I'd have to go back and
look.
MRS. SAPP:
a minute.
-- after '70, but it -- no, wait
I'm trying to think --
�51
1
DR. SAPP:
2
MRS. SAPP:
I thought they'd come in the --- of from the ages of our
3
children.
It must have been in the later '60s,
4
because our kids were born in '61 and '63 and they
5
were still fairly young.
6
we went to Berkeley or after?
7
got a sabbatical and we spent a semester out
8
there, and that, talk about integration, they had
9
integrated the schools by busing, I mean really
10
integrated them.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
MRS. SAPP:
13
It was -- was it before
That was a, Dick
Okay.
Our children were in the minority
as whites, --
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
-- which was I thought excellent,
16
and they had very good teachers at the whole
17
school, which isn't very good or hasn't been very
18
good for quite awhile but was excellent in 1970.
19
They were really working to bring all children
20
up --
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
(10:49:45)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Right.
-- to standards, so --
Yes, my own children went to a
-- I was a career naval officer and spent my tour
�52
1
before coming to Lawrence, we spent quite a bit of
2
time at a big U.S. Navy base we have out in Japan
3
and we have DOD school system there and the DOD
4
high school, my children were minority in that
5
high school and they had a wonderful experience
6
and I thought there wasn't any better way for them
7
to really learn other cultures and be exposed to
8
--
9
MRS. SAPP:
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
Wow.
Which is why we --
-- that kind of diversity, which
I think is important for everybody.
12
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, why we need it.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
DR. SAPP:
Yes, absolutely.
They've got to be carefully taught
15
one way or the other.
16
MRS. SAPP:
This whole schools, getting the
17
schools integrated, which Lawrence did to some
18
extent by busing, our children went to Hillcrest
19
school and a lot of the kids from Stouffer Place
20
from graduate students from other countries went
21
there, too, so that was I thought very good.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MRS. SAPP:
Good.
But, oh, kids are, you know, if
24
they're not told that they shouldn't accept people
25
they just accept them so well.
�53
1
(10:50:59)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
Let me take you back again to those articles
Right.
Yep, absolutely.
4
we were talking about.
Was there any negative
5
reaction?
6
response to any of them, that you recall?
Was there letters to the editor in
7
DR. SAPP:
No reaction that I remember.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
DR. SAPP:
Okay.
But the realtors did have their
10
turn.
They had a big ad in the Journal-World
11
about forced housing and that was rebutted by the
12
local chapter of the NAACP.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MRS. SAPP:
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Have you seen that ad?
I've seen an ad that was
16
actually run at the time the state was considering
17
it in which, is this the one in which the realtors
18
basically called fair housing kind of a
19
Marxist-socialist doctrine?
20
MRS. SAPP:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
25
'65.
That was probably the one.
Is the one I've seen, -Yes, that's the one.
-- and I think this was run when
the state was first considering -MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
�54
1
DR. SAPP:
Now locally --
2
MR. ARNOLD:
-- and describes a philosophy of
3
curbing the property-owning class is a
4
Marxist-socialist doctrine, so they took their
5
position pretty strongly.
6
DR. SAPP:
Now locally a lawyer, Don Hults,
7
who had been a former state senator, appeared to
8
testify against the Lawrence ordinance --
9
10
MR. ARNOLD:
DR. SAPP:
Right.
-- on behalf of the Lawrence
11
realtors board.
12
MRS. SAPP:
13
(10:52:39)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Yes, do you kind of recall the
15
nature of their arguments against it?
16
Fred Six gave us a very good description.
17
18
19
DR. SAPP:
Although
I think I had a copy of the
newspaper article that quoted him.
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes, Fred went into a
20
great deal of legal detail about what their legal
21
positions were, which he just thought were not
22
worth very much.
23
DR. SAPP:
Yes, right.
24
(10:53:05)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
The other thing I wanted to ask
�55
1
you about is the other part of the campaign that
2
the Fair Housing Coordinating Committee kind of
3
had going in parallel to the Human Relations
4
Commission working on the ordinance in addition to
5
those articles was a signature campaign in which
6
they published the signatures of, --
7
MRS. SAPP:
Oh, right.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
-- in two different times, I
9
think there was like 900 in one full page ad that
10
they published and then three or 400 more, so well
11
over a thousand signatures of people, and not only
12
did they have the people's names but also their
13
addresses, and the city mapping people have
14
actually mapped where all those people live and
15
found it was a pretty widespread group of people
16
who lived all over town, and were you surprised,
17
do you remember, at that widespread level of
18
support or do you feel like Lawrence, there was a
19
fairly broad-based group of people who were ready
20
for this kind of change?
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
DR. SAPP:
I felt they were ready, yes.
Yes.
I was heartened.
I don't
23
remember being personally involved in that idea
24
even but, so the list just appeared in the paper
25
and I thought, gee, this is great for Lawrence.
�56
1
MRS. SAPP:
2
knew about it.
3
DR. SAPP:
4
MRS. SAPP:
5
Well, I think we signed it and
Yes.
But no, we didn't -- we weren't
among the people who got it going.
6
(10:54:34)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
Right.
And it's interesting
that even --
9
MRS. SAPP:
I don't think --
10
MR. ARNOLD:
-- I think about three years
11
before the United Church Women of Lawrence did a
12
similar campaign which they worked through the
13
churches and got about 845 signatures, so there
14
clearly was, again, Lawrence was a pretty small
15
town so if you get over a thousand signatures was
16
not insignificant at the time.
17
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
18
DR. SAPP:
Right.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
21
So it does show that there was a
fair amount of support out there.
MRS. SAPP:
I think the realtors were finding
22
themselves kind of in the minority and I think
23
once the ordinance was passed, which was, what, on
24
a six month, it was really just, I don't remember
25
any problems that like people said I'm not gonna
�57
1
follow this or that kind of -- they may have said
2
it but you didn't read about it in the paper or
3
hear about it.
4
(10:55:24)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And there didn't appear
6
to be a big backlash in terms of letters to the
7
editor.
8
very many that objected to the ordinance.
9
There were a couple of voices but not
When the ordinance, in April, I don't know
10
whether you were at the meeting at the City
11
Commission, but Fred Six presented the ordinance
12
to the commission.
13
MRS. SAPP:
Uh-huh.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, we were there.
And everything that I can tell,
15
the commission seemed fairly receptive, at least
16
the majority of them.
17
that there wasn't a whole lot of pushback?
18
mean, Dick Raney even was quoted in the paper
19
after it was presented praising it as a great
20
piece of work, so were you confident in the time,
21
at that time that you thought it was going to pass
22
the City Commission?
23
DR. SAPP:
Was that your impression,
I
Did you feel like --
Yes, there was just one, one guy
24
who was very conservative businessman downtown who
25
-- and the farthest he could go was to say, "Well,
�58
1
I don't know, I have to think about this," you
2
know.
3
MRS. SAPP:
I probably, I was a whole lot
4
younger then, but I was sure it would pass.
5
wasn't surprised that it passed.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MRS. SAPP:
8
people worked on it.
9
time.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
MRS. SAPP:
12
I
Good.
I mean, we worked, all -- so many
No, I think it was, it was
Right.
I think people realized it was
time.
13
(10:56:41)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
And Fred Six kind of pointed out
15
that really the members of the Human Relations
16
Commission at that time he felt was a pretty broad
17
and prominent cross section of the community and
18
their influence on, not that most of the city
19
commission wasn't receptive anyway but that just
20
gave a little extra weight to it with those kind
21
of people behind it.
22
MRS. SAPP:
Well, yes, and I think people in
23
the community said, oh, accepted having a Human
24
Relations Committee, --
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
�59
1
MRS. SAPP:
-- accepted that we needed --
2
(10:57:12)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
A couple other things that were
4
sent up to the City Commission at the time they
5
were considering the ordinance was a letter from
6
Vice Chancellor Surface which said the university
7
is fully supportive of this, it's in accordance
8
with the university's housing policy, which had
9
already, the university some years earlier had
10
gone through its own process of finally getting
11
around to integrated housing policy, so the
12
university administration was behind it, and then
13
also there was a letter, I don't know if you
14
recall, from Ted Owens, the basketball coach.
15
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
And he said, you know, I go
17
around the country recruiting athletes to come to
18
K.U., I tell their parents that they're coming to
19
a wonderful town where they'll be treated fairly
20
and we need this, an ordinance like this to back
21
that up.
22
expressions of support were influential in helping
23
to push it through?
24
MRS. SAPP:
25
DR. SAPP:
Do you think that those types of
Oh, I think so.
I think so, yes, yes.
�60
1
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
It's, again, having, being
2
in a university town that helped but certainly
3
people have always been very enamored of K.U.
4
basketball so if they thought, people thought, you
5
know, you might not get a recruit because of this
6
I'm sure they would --
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MRS. SAPP:
-- pretty much say, "well."
9
DR. SAPP:
You know, housing for students
Right.
Every little bit helps.
10
really underwent a great change just since we came
11
here.
12
students still lived in private --
When we came in '57 most of the men
13
MRS. SAPP:
Rooming houses.
14
DR. SAPP:
-- rooming houses.
15
16
There were no
Daisy Field dorms at all.
MRS. SAPP:
But it was integrated through --
17
wasn't the stadium housing integrated, their
18
housing below the, underneath the stadium?
19
think the housing was integrated.
20
(10:59:07)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
I
It wasn't initially but -No, I mean by then --- it was one of the first
24
things, it became integrated, then the big fight
25
was whether the university would continue to allow
�61
1
private landlords to advertise housing on
2
campus --
3
MRS. SAPP:
That's right, that's right.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
-- that would not allow
5
African-Americans into that housing and the
6
university finally, under some pressure, finally
7
took a position that yes, we're not going to allow
8
those landlords to advertise on campus.
9
10
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, I do remember, now that you
remind me.
11
(10:59:35)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
I think that was kind of the
13
last fight, and Gale Sayers was actually involved
14
in the protests related to making that change, so
15
the athletes at K.U. definitely played a role in
16
--
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
Definitely.
-- helping to bring about
change?
20
DR. SAPP:
Yes.
21
(10:59:48)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
One thing I noted in reading the
23
meeting minutes of all the human relations council
24
meetings, and I, or Human Relations Commission
25
meetings and then also I think the City Commission
�62
1
meetings on this issue were that the two of you
2
were present at every one of them.
3
because of your involvement with this particular
4
issue or did the two of you normally attend those
5
on just general issues?
6
MRS. SAPP:
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MRS. SAPP:
9
DR. SAPP:
10
Was that just
No, we didn't normally.
Okay.
It was because of this.
We were very committed to this
issue.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
I would say we were interested in
13
others and we did go to some other meetings but we
14
didn't go regularly.
15
(11:00:23)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now, when the City
17
Commission held, during two different sessions,
18
one the proponents of the ordinance presented
19
their case and then later Don Hults and I think
20
one other realtor were the only people who showed
21
up speaking against it at a separate session, but
22
do you recall in the session of the proponents
23
people, as I recall, spoke in favor of it, like
24
Jesse Milan, Homer Floyd, who was the director
25
then of the Kansas Civil Rights Commission, do you
�63
1
think voices like theirs, voices of people who had
2
been discriminated against, played an important
3
role in swaying the commission that this was the
4
right thing to do?
5
MRS. SAPP:
I think so, yes, and the -- do
6
you want to say something about the Kansas
7
Advisory Commission, or Committee for Civil Rights
8
with -- Dick was a member of this.
9
10
DR. SAPP:
local level and I got involved at the national, --
11
MRS. SAPP:
12
DR. SAPP:
13
We kind of progressed from the
At the state.
-- I'm sorry, at the state level,
too.
14
(11:01:27)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
17
Yes, I'd like to hear about that
as well.
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, I was not on the one that
18
went to that, but first let me say, Ruth Shechter
19
in Kansas City was director or head of that Kansas
20
Advisory Council for Civil Rights and I found a
21
copy of a letter she sent saying thank you for
22
sending a copy of the Lawrence ordinance and
23
congratulations and we got, at least we got
24
something through after losing at the state level.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
�64
1
MRS. SAPP:
She was very pleased with that.
2
She was a very good person to have directing this
3
and just spent all kinds of time involved.
4
think she had come through from the Jewish, what,
5
I don't know what organization but I think she'd
6
started out in that way, but, yes, you can go
7
ahead.
8
Kansas Advisory Council and we both attended a
9
number of the meetings when Dick was on it.
We've got oodles of material from the
10
(11:02:33)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
I
Yes, describe that organization
and how you were involved with that.
13
DR. SAPP:
I didn't know whether you -- I
14
think we both went.
15
were very social minded, involved in things, told
16
us about a meeting in Topeka where they were going
17
to talk about fair housing and so we were coming
18
right off of this hot topic in our minds so we
19
wanted to go to this meeting, and they had a
20
realtor from someplace in Colorado as the
21
principal speaker, spoke about they had gotten
22
fair housing ordinance in Colorado and what was
23
involved, but he seemed amazed that they had been
24
able to do that.
25
be done until it got done out there, so he was
George and Mandy Caldwell
He didn't realize that it could
�65
1
kind of there to encourage us, but the executive
2
director of the Kansas --
3
MRS. SAPP:
4
DR. SAPP:
5
MRS. SAPP:
6
DR. SAPP:
Carl Glatt.
Carl Glatt.
Glatt.
Kansas Civil Rights Commission, he
7
was a white man and with I would say a very
8
abrasive approach to things and he was under
9
considerable fire and so at this meeting then we
10
heard black people testifying against Carl Glatt.
11
They didn't like Carl Glatt, they wanted to get
12
rid of him, and so this was kind of a new
13
phenomenon to me, so after the meeting we went to
14
talk to their spokesman, who had presented their
15
objections to Carl Glatt, and we just said, you
16
know, we're just getting into this, we don't know
17
much about it, but what if you get rid of Carl
18
Glatt?
19
we have a man in mind who I think can do a very
20
good job in that position.
21
So that's when --
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
DR. SAPP:
24
25
What are you wanting?
And he said, well,
Homer Floyd.
-- Homer Floyd came on the scene
there.
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, that's very good.
�66
1
MRS. SAPP:
Here is a -- oh, there were
2
things about was this constitutional, too, that,
3
you know, fair housing.
4
(11:05:24)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Fair Housing Ordinances.
And
6
that was probably resolved the next year when the
7
federal fair housing law was passed.
8
9
Now, I had seen a letter that I think the two
of you signed to the U.S. Senator from Kansas --
10
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
-- in support of fair housing
12
nationally, so you all were obviously looking much
13
bigger picture than just --
14
DR. SAPP:
By then, yes.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
Yes, here's one, Kansas Advisory
17
Council on Civil Rights.
18
from the Kansas City Star on November 2, '66,
19
realtors help write Colorado housing law.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
(11:06)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
It's an article then
Okay.
That's kind of interesting.
And I know there was some
24
effort, people like Glenn Kappelman, and even
25
Homer Floyd went and talked at one point to the
�67
1
Lawrence realtors to try and bring them on board
2
and get them involved in the process, like it
3
sounds like happened in Colorado, but they tended
4
to be resistant.
5
DR. SAPP:
Still licking their wounds.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MRS. SAPP:
8
DR. SAPP:
Right.
They just --
On that trip to Topeka I got
9
acquainted with the woman that Fred mentioned as
10
the chair of their local civil rights commission
11
here in Lawrence, Mayzelma Wallace.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
DR. SAPP:
Right.
And I got acquainted with her on
14
that and she was really a remarkable individual.
15
I was very impressed with her.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Fred said he got to know
17
her very well and was thoroughly impressed with
18
her.
19
MRS. SAPP:
I did go to those meetings, I'm
20
just not listed as a member of the committee and
21
it's all kind of fuzzy to me, but I know Dick took
22
an active part and I know I went to meetings in
23
Topeka with that, and Georgella Lyles was another,
24
a black woman in Lawrence who did quite a bit with
25
this kind of thing.
I remember Georgella well,
�68
1
2
who was a good person, really good person.
Yes, Fred was really very involved with the
3
whole thing at a time when he was establishing his
4
own career and such, too.
5
(11:07:49)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I'm sure he --
Earlier in the
7
conversation we talked about, I asked you about
8
kind of if you could name some people who played
9
kind of a prominent role in general in Lawrence in
10
bringing about change.
How about specific to the
11
Fair Housing Ordinance?
Can you name any other
12
key individuals who you think played an important,
13
particularly important role in making it happen
14
and getting the ordinance up before the City
15
Commission and getting it passed?
16
MRS. SAPP:
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
a group effort?
19
MRS. SAPP:
I would say -Or was it pretty much a kind of
Well, I think that's true but I
20
think like Glenn Kappelman, who was not on the
21
Human Relations Commission, --
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MRS. SAPP:
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
become a member.
He actually was.
Oh, was he?
He was.
In 1967 he actually had
�69
1
MRS. SAPP:
Okay, I didn't realize, I didn't
2
remember that.
3
Human Relations Commission, Jim Owens and --
4
5
6
7
8
DR. SAPP:
I would say all the people on the
I can't think of anybody you
haven't already mentioned.
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Just wanted to make sure
we didn't leave anybody out.
MRS. SAPP:
You know, the thing, it just
9
seemed to go through this, it was such a fight on
10
the state and defeated but locally it just seemed,
11
you know, I think maybe partly because the state
12
one was defeated, that people, that enough people
13
were rather indignant about that, too, and just
14
said we'll go, because the City Commission just
15
came along.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
Right.
Course, they'd heard from people
about it.
19
(11:09:20)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
And after it passed do you
21
recall any particular grumbling among the local
22
public or -- I've read somewhere that some people
23
said, well, maybe this should have gone to a
24
referendum, that there should have been a --
25
MRS. SAPP:
Oh, well, that's always said.
�70
1
MR. ARNOLD:
But do you recall there was any
2
significant pressure at all against it or was it
3
pretty well accepted, to the best of your
4
recollection?
5
DR. SAPP:
I don't think I have a clipping
6
but somehow I remember a report of a woman who
7
owned and operated an apartment complex and she
8
objected to this on the basis, you know, private
9
property, I can choose to associate with whoever I
10
want or not, and she pretty much expressed that
11
forced housing point of view that the realtors
12
were putting.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MRS. SAPP:
15
16
DR. SAPP:
professor, too.
18
MRS. SAPP:
20
21
DR. SAPP:
Did she write an article?
How
That's what I can't remember now.
I didn't find a clipping in our collection.
MRS. SAPP:
23
there about it.
25
She's the wife of a university
did you hear about it, do you remember?
22
24
Did she write a, do you remember
--
17
19
Right.
DR. SAPP:
Well, I didn't see anything in
I don't really remember that.
I don't remember her name so I
can't name names.
�71
1
(11:10:53)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, the reason I bring that up
3
is we had looked earlier at that letter to the
4
editor that the two of you signed some weeks after
5
it passed and I was wondering, do you think that
6
was a response because there were some other
7
negative letters about it and you were just trying
8
to lay out the positive argument or did you just
9
feel like at that point the City Commission
10
deserved an "attaboy" for having gotten this done?
11
MRS. SAPP:
12
DR. SAPP:
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
Probably both.
Some relief.
I don't really remember but I
don't think we would have heard too much about it.
15
(11:11:26)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, because you really, your
17
letter to the editor both praised the fact that it
18
passed, couple of paragraphs you kind of
19
summarized here's what's in the ordinance, just to
20
make people aware, and --
21
22
MRS. SAPP:
was another thing.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MRS. SAPP:
25
Publicity, I think that was, that
Right.
Make sure people -- some people
read letters to the editors and they don't read
�72
1
other things.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
But, you know, that there's
4
support for this.
5
grumbled about it and I'm sure there were people
6
who owned, you know, a couple duplexes and don't
7
want this done, but there were some exceptions for
8
duplexes.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MRS. SAPP:
I'm sure there were people who
Right.
And I don't know, I think for a
11
lot of people the whole idea of selling your house
12
to people, to, well, in this case, of course, to
13
black people was losing money and that that comes
14
with the redlining and somebody going in and
15
saying your property values are going to drop and
16
that kind of thing.
17
18
Financial, in other words, because a lot of
people really couldn't afford to lose money.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
If you had enough money you could
21
take a stand on that way, so there again, having a
22
law meant that --
23
24
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Everybody was on an equal
playing field.
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
That's a help.
�73
1
DR. SAPP:
I have one other experience.
2
About that time, after it passed, we had next door
3
neighbors who at some point got separating and
4
divorcing and so they were going to sell their
5
house and so I saw the woman in the driveway one
6
day and I walked over and I said, "I just want you
7
to know that as far as we're concerned we'd be
8
happy if you sold your house to negroes or whites
9
but we, don't think that we wouldn't like that,
10
discrimination like that," and the woman, her jaw
11
dropped.
12
anything ever to me again.
She just stared at me.
13
(11:13:59)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
She never said
But you commented
15
before we started the interview that in fact your
16
neighborhood did become integrated,
17
African-American families moved in after the
18
ordinance had passed?
19
MRS. SAPP:
20
They just didn't
stay long because they were university.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
Yes, a couple.
Right.
We lived right near the
university, just down the hill, so it's --
24
(11:14:16)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
And you all were on Avalon, is
�74
1
that --
2
MRS. SAPP:
Avalon, and it's a very -- well,
3
there are a number of people who aren't associated
4
with the university but it's, at least it used to
5
be mostly university people because they wanted to
6
live right close to campus, which is what we've
7
always liked.
8
(11:14:34)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
Right.
So you all can say that
you actually saw some actual change come about --
11
MRS. SAPP:
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
(11:14:41)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, right.
-- as a result of the ordinance?
Right.
And would you say that the
16
neighborhood accepted these families without any
17
issues?
18
19
MRS. SAPP:
I never heard any problem about
it.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MRS. SAPP:
Good.
I'm quite sure it would be
22
accepted by the people who lived there.
We have,
23
well, we have gay people, we have, I don't --
24
we've had people from other countries or of other
25
nationalities, we -- I don't believe there's a
�75
1
black couple there now.
2
feeling for who all lives there.
3
-- we've been there longer than anybody but I
4
would say people are neighborly but don't have
5
time to really neighbor.
6
of, you know, get-togethers that we once did.
7
(11:15:30)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MRS. SAPP:
I don't have as good a
As we've gotten
We don't have the kind
Right, right.
And also there are not many
10
children right now in the neighborhood and when
11
there are children that's how you get out.
12
(11:15:38)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
This may not be a fair
14
question to ask because it asks you to kind of
15
give me a general impression, but would you say
16
that what happened in your neighborhood, did you
17
have any observations that that was starting to
18
happen more broadly in Lawrence after the
19
ordinance passed, that --
20
MRS. SAPP:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
I think so.
-- neighborhoods were starting
to integrate?
23
MRS. SAPP:
24
(11:15:56)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I think so.
So you all can say based on your
�76
1
observation and impressions that the ordinance did
2
make a difference?
3
MRS. SAPP:
Oh yes, I think it made a
4
difference in attitudes.
I think there were a lot
5
of people -- this is my impression, I don't have
6
any facts or, you know, really to base -- that
7
there were people probably just waiting for
8
something like this that were relieved or found,
9
at least, as they went on, and people found --
10
well, we did have friends, again, associated with
11
the university who lived not many blocks from us,
12
toward downtown, I think on Alabama, and they were
13
in, I'm not sure whether they owned or rented the
14
house, I remember Thelma telling me -- and she was
15
at the high school as a counselor or something,
16
but across the street the woman wasn't too happy.
17
Now, Thelma was very low key and she said, I just,
18
essentially she overcame this with kindness.
19
was very friendly, she would take things over to
20
the woman and such and came around, so some of
21
that is getting to know people.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Absolutely.
23
MRS. SAPP:
A lot of it.
24
(11:17:13)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
That's one of the biggest,
She
�77
1
biggest arguments for integration is when you get
2
to know the people you didn't think you liked
3
before but then you find out they're just people
4
just like you your attitude changes.
5
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
Well, we find that
6
underneath everybody is pretty much, everybody
7
wants the best for their family, they want a home,
8
you know, they want employment.
9
(11:17:37)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Let's shift away from
11
fair housing for just a second and we had brought
12
up earlier the swimming pool.
13
the city finally in a public vote passed a bond
14
issue to build the public swimming pool after it
15
had failed a couple time previous, times
16
previously.
17
MRS. SAPP:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
In November of '67
Yes.
What do you think finally
19
convinced -- and I understand it didn't pass by
20
much, but it passed.
21
convinced a majority of the public that the time
22
had come to build an integrated swimming pool and
23
passed that bond issue?
24
25
MRS. SAPP:
What do you think finally
Well, I think people were worn
down and I think the children had a lot to do with
�78
1
it, I suspect, insisting they wanted a swimming
2
pool, and not only the white -- white children
3
wanted a bigger swimming pool, a good swimming
4
pool.
5
23rd was not very big, and we took our kids to
6
that.
7
knew that we wouldn't, that they wouldn't, unless
8
there was a public one, and eventually we did join
9
one out near the West Junior High because that's
10
where they went and their friends were there and
11
they could ride their bikes there.
The little one they opened down south at
We would not join a private pool, and they
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
But that was after we had the
14
downtown public pool open, and they did go to the
15
one downtown, too.
16
17
So, okay, so why it passed then.
think people, it's this issue is not going away.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. SAPP:
20
Well, I
Right.
There are enough people pushing
for it.
21
(11:19:20)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
And obviously the fact, as you
23
point out, there didn't seem to be much pushback
24
to the fair housing issue so maybe attitudes were
25
just starting to change.
�79
1
MRS. SAPP:
2
DR. SAPP:
3
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
I can't think it was --
Yes.
I think, I think coming up with
4
the money for it.
5
many people who were against it.
6
enough -- there were other swimming pool things.
7
If you didn't want your kids swimming with
8
children of other races or nationalities you could
9
join a private one.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
MRS. SAPP:
12
I'm not sure there were too
There were
Right.
But you needed, but we needed one
that was available to all children.
13
(11:19:52)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Somebody told me, it might have
15
been Professor Casad, that he thought that both
16
Baldwin and Eudora had integrated public pools
17
before Lawrence did.
18
sense of pressure in Lawrence that other
19
communities --
Do you think there was any
20
MRS. SAPP:
Oh, I don't remember that but --
21
MR. ARNOLD:
-- had integrated pools and you
22
23
24
25
were behind?
MRS. SAPP:
so, yes.
(11:20:15)
Yes, I think so.
I would think
�80
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Another thing I wanted to ask
2
you is obviously there was a lot going on
3
nationally in that time frame, racial tensions and
4
of course action at the national level.
5
Rights Act had passed, the Voting Rights Act.
6
you think that national events put pressure on
7
people here locally that they needed to recognize
8
that change is coming, let's start adopting it
9
locally because it's the right thing to do?
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
MRS. SAPP:
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
Did you have that feeling that
people were --
16
MR. ARNOLD:
-- more and more, yes.
-- cognizant of what was
happening around the country and feeling like --
18
MRS. SAPP:
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
-- it's time for us to change
here, too?
21
DR. SAPP:
22
MRS. SAPP:
23
(11:20:56)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Right.
I think people --
MRS. SAPP:
20
Do
And it's going to come.
15
17
The Civil
I think so.
I certainly think so.
And certainly a university town,
again, you would have had people who were very
�81
1
well read and aware of what was going on and --
2
MRS. SAPP:
And coming from other places.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MRS. SAPP:
Right, exactly.
And, you know, the library, I was
5
thinking about this, we had too small a library,
6
it was outdated, and wanted a library and pushing
7
for a bond issue for that, which happened, as I
8
remember, in 1970, the bond issue passed.
9
of goes along.
10
It kind
It's, again, something our
children need a better library facility.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
We all need a better library
13
facility.
On, there's fair housing, there's the
14
swimming pool.
15
because the library had been open to, of course,
16
everyone, but just the idea of having a better,
17
bigger, for the children, as well as for other
18
people.
19
that wanted things for its children, --
The library is a little different
I think Lawrence was very much a town
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MRS. SAPP:
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MRS. SAPP:
24
(11:22:05)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
-- were aware of this.
Right.
I think it always has been, so --
Now, unfortunately, even as this
�82
1
progress was happening in '69 and '70 Lawrence
2
erupted in some violence, --
3
MRS. SAPP:
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
Yes.
-- some of it related to the
Vietnam War --
6
MRS. SAPP:
Yes.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
-- and some of it also related
8
to racial issues.
9
of, when that happened or did you sort of have a
10
sense that there was kind of a lid on a boiling
11
pot and that something was going to happen at some
12
point?
13
DR. SAPP:
Were you surprised when kind
We were on my sabbatical out at
14
Berkeley for six months, in the first six months
15
of 1970, --
16
MRS. SAPP:
17
DR. SAPP:
When the Union burned.
-- and that was just the end of
18
the violence in Berkeley, the city park bust had
19
happened the previous fall and things were
20
beginning to quiet down there, so I picked up the
21
San Francisco Chronicle and on the front page was
22
a picture of Lawrence police macing black students
23
at Lawrence High.
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
DR. SAPP:
Wow.
And people said, "Ooh, what's
�83
1
2
going on in Lawrence, in Kansas?"
MRS. SAPP:
Gee whiz.
We, of course, heard from some of
3
the people here, and, Dick, but they were still
4
using tear gas on campus.
5
DR. SAPP:
6
MRS. SAPP:
Out there, yes.
Out there.
7
over.
8
the west coast.
9
(11:23:28)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
It wasn't completely
Oh, it was a very interesting time to be on
Did it surprise you when it
11
happened in Lawrence or did you have a sense
12
before you left that maybe things were kind of
13
build-, that that tension was building?
14
15
16
DR. SAPP:
I had not imagined that kind of
thing happening.
MRS. SAPP:
It was a shock to me.
I don't know.
It's -- I wasn't
17
too surprised.
I wasn't anticipating it but I
18
wasn't too surprised because just, again, you're
19
aware in a university town, the high school
20
students, the younger students are aware of so
21
many things because of that.
22
(11:24:04)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Actually that's been
24
brought up to me by a couple of people is that it
25
wasn't just the university but the high school
�84
1
also was kind of a focal point of some racial
2
tensions.
3
MRS. SAPP:
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
that time frame?
6
high school?
7
8
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, yes.
How old were your children in
They were still younger than
In, well, let's see, in '69 they
would have been eight and six or so.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MRS. SAPP:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
personal experience --
13
MRS. SAPP:
Okay.
Yes, they were well below that.
So you wouldn't have had
And out in Berkeley they were in
14
grade school and they got excellent education and
15
a very diverse, among, in a diverse setting.
16
Teachers were diverse as well.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MRS. SAPP:
Right, right.
And of course exposed to a lot
19
of, a lot of other things around there, so --
20
which we thought was very good for them, and, you
21
know, children just accept these things.
22
suppose if their parents have taught them
23
otherwise, but the friends our children, the kids
24
they went to school with, that they chose to
25
become closer to, there was no bearing on race,
I
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you know, it was just various races and whatever
2
and nobody seemed to be paying attention to what
3
color your skin was, what your eyes looked like
4
or, you know, I just never heard anything about
5
that, and I volunteered in the art classroom once
6
a week and so I was around the children some and
7
such, because I was very involved in our workshops
8
and activities out there.
9
time.
10
You could just participate in all kinds of
things without any formal basis really.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
DR. SAPP:
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
DR. SAPP:
15
It was so, such an open
Right.
They also had a good anti-drug -Oh yes.
-- education program at Berkeley
and that was very good.
16
MRS. SAPP:
17
(11:26:05)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Starting, you know, first grade.
Interesting.
Well, I'm coming
19
close to the end of my questions, you'll be glad
20
to know, but I want to give you the opportunity to
21
blow your own horns a little bit.
22
two of you most proud of of the contributions you
23
made to these groups and to these accomplishments
24
back in that time frame?
25
MRS. SAPP:
What are the
Well, getting other, working with
�86
1
other people, getting other people involved,
2
promoting the fact that we needed fair housing
3
law, promoting integration of things, I would say,
4
for me.
5
Fact that you stuck your neck out, but you
6
got -- well, did you have tenure?
7
you had tenure.
8
DR. SAPP:
9
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, by then
Yes, right.
It took me quite awhile, I think,
10
to realize that, the pressure that could be on
11
people about their livelihood and such things.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MRS. SAPP:
14
Right.
You know, because we -- I just
didn't worry about that.
15
(11:27:19)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Dick, do you have any thoughts
17
on what you are most proud of of your involvement
18
at that time?
19
DR. SAPP:
I was just resisting the concept
20
of personal pride.
21
satisfaction out of doing the things that we did
22
in connection with this.
23
worked out.
24
(11:27:46)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
I just got a lot of
Right.
I'm so glad it all
The final question, in
�87
1
reflecting back on how you were able to accomplish
2
these things back then, if you were to talk to a
3
group of young people today who wanted to know how
4
they could bring about positive change what would
5
you tell them based on your experiences back then?
6
What lessons would you pass along?
7
8
9
MRS. SAPP:
Go ahead.
You dealt with young
people for more years than I did.
DR. SAPP:
Well, I just, I guess I would try
10
to modestly say this is one way to go about it,
11
but some people don't have the temperament to do
12
it that way, they've got to storm the Bastille and
13
sometimes that accomplishes things, too, so -- but
14
that's not the way I like to work.
15
this whole fair housing thing I felt like I was
16
kind of working behind the scenes somewhat.
17
surface here and there, but like arranging those
18
newspaper articles, my name does not appear
19
anywhere in any of the newspapers that carried
20
those articles.
21
MRS. SAPP:
In fact, in
I did
And not because you were afraid
22
to put it in but because you didn't feel it was
23
necessary.
24
DR. SAPP:
25
MRS. SAPP:
It wasn't -You didn't have the standing in
�88
1
the community --
2
DR. SAPP:
3
MRS. SAPP:
4
5
I didn't have --- or known in the community in
the way these others -DR. SAPP:
As a physicist I had no expertise,
6
that I've entirely an avocation to meddle in civil
7
rights affairs.
8
MRS. SAPP:
Yes, I don't call it pride but
9
just feeling good that we were active in it, I was
10
active in it, and tell people to go ahead and act
11
on your beliefs as much as you can, but think
12
about it, not just go out --
13
DR. SAPP:
The other thing I'd say is it can
14
be quite exhausting and I can't personally imagine
15
myself involving myself in a series of issues like
16
that over and over again, doing all this pushing
17
through to -- I kind of exhausted my energy for
18
that kind of effort.
19
(11:30:15)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, did the two of you get
21
involved in anything along those same lines later
22
on or was that --
23
MRS. SAPP:
Not, not to that extent.
24
DR. SAPP:
25
MR. ARNOLD:
No.
Okay.
�89
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MRS. SAPP:
Not to that extent.
Yes, I think
2
we were doing that while having small, but not,
3
not infants but small children.
4
where you were working on research and --
5
DR. SAPP:
6
MRS. SAPP:
You were still
Still building my career, yes.
Yes, working on career and the
7
teaching, which can take, as you know, as much
8
time as you put in on it, and --
9
10
11
DR. SAPP:
We went from advocacy to just
being supportive of positive -MRS. SAPP:
I, you know, I'd say I was still
12
involved with the establishing the nursery schools
13
and things like that, but working with that
14
somewhat, with the, whatever the league was
15
working with at -- well, for the library, we
16
worked for getting that bond issue passed.
17
not to that extent.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
end of my questions.
20
opportunity.
21
touched on or any other memories you had which you
22
really were hoping to have the chance to share,
23
that this is your opportunity to do that, or have
24
we covered everything you can think of?
25
Okay.
No,
Well, I have come to the
I want to give you one last
Is there anything that I haven't
MRS. SAPP:
I think we've covered it.
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DR. SAPP:
Covered it.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
Well, thank you so much
3
for your time.
4
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance is a real
5
testament to how a group of concerned citizens can
6
come together kind of at the grassroots level and
7
push for change and make it happen, so I think
8
your involvement in that is something both of you
9
can be very proud of.
10
DR. SAPP:
I think the passage of the
Yes, this is all preliminary.
11
Next year will be the actual observance of the
12
50th anniversary.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MRS. SAPP:
Right.
But you've done good -- I thought
15
Fred gave a very good talk.
16
mic?
17
MR. ARNOLD:
We are still on the
Yes, but I can turn it off since
18
I think we've wrapped up the formal interview.
19
*****
20
21
22
23
24
25
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sapp, Richard
Sapp, Phyllis
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:38:35
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Richard and Phyllis Sapp
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.)
League of Women Voters (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Richard and Phyllis Sapp; Richard was a faculty member at the University of Kansas, and Phyllis was involved with community organizations such as the League of Women Voters at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 28, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sapp, Richard
Sapp, Phyllis
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/28/2016
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/richard-and-phyllis-sapp-hi?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SappInterview102816.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1957 - 1967
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/c5a3e9da15474b150b7e3e0d7ad3f230.pdf
4e337652dbeda16a1ff4c8746a0f1d24
PDF Text
Text
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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
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50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
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Interview of Richard Raney
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October 19, 2016
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�2
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(16:30:45)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is October 19th, 2016.
I
3
am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing Dick
4
Raney at the Lawrence Public Library for the City
5
of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th
6
Anniversary Oral History Project.
7
At the time the ordinance passed in July,
8
1967, Mayor Raney was serving as a city
9
commissioner and as the mayor of Lawrence and as
10
11
mayor he signed the ordinance.
Mayor Raney, I would like to start off by
12
having you tell me a little bit about your early
13
background, including what brought you to Lawrence
14
and what you were doing here in the mid 1960s.
15
MR. RANEY:
I was a middle 30s pharmacist,
16
owner of three drug stores in Lawrence.
Beyond
17
that, decided to run for the City Commission and
18
served four years, did not choose to run for
19
reelection.
I got sort of busy.
20
(10:23:33)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
And you had told me
22
before that you came to Lawrence to attend K.U.
23
and then stayed, or had you moved here before
24
that?
25
MR. RANEY:
I really stayed, came here from
�3
1
Osborne, Kansas, my hometown, and skipped my
2
senior year in high school, thinking that World
3
War II might be demanding of my presence and that
4
maybe a year at K.U. before getting drafted would
5
be helpful.
6
before I matriculated.
As it is the war was over a month
7
(10:24:06)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MR. RANEY:
11
(10:24:09)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
14
15
And was your degree in
pharmacy?
10
13
Okay.
In business.
In business, okay.
And so you
opened the pharmacy after you graduated?
MR. RANEY:
Yes, three, actually in the first
decade of my being here.
16
(10:24:19)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, great.
Where did you live
18
at the time or -- I know you had mentioned that
19
you, after you were married you and your wife
20
moved into a neighborhood up near Iowa.
21
MR. RANEY:
We lived across from the 4-H
22
grounds for the first year and a half of our
23
marriage.
24
'54, Rich in '55, and moved to our current
25
address, my current address, 5 Westwood Road in
Then we had two children, Michelle in
�4
1
Lawrence.
2
(10:24:53)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
Okay.
And was that in an
all-white neighborhood at that time?
5
MR. RANEY:
6
(10:24:58)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Oh, certainly.
Okay.
And would you, how would
8
you kind of characterize Lawrence at that time in
9
terms of the degrees of segregation and some of
10
11
12
the observable discrimination?
MR. RANEY:
Well, certainly economically and
residentially very segregated.
13
(10:25:15)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
You had mentioned that as a
15
pharmacist many African-Americans were customers
16
of yours because of your willingness to work with
17
them and provide them credit as needed and that
18
that gave you some insights into the
19
African-American community and their struggles.
20
Can you describe that a little bit?
21
MR. RANEY:
Provided me with quite an
22
education.
There were four other drug stores in
23
downtown Lawrence at that point in time, and,
24
having a very tiny little drug store to begin
25
with, I was finding it very difficult to establish
�5
1
clientele, and some blacks came in and needed some
2
credit, I offered them, and they were uniformly
3
punctual and reliable and friendships formed as a
4
result of that relationship.
5
(10:26:11)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
So how would you describe some
7
of the struggles that they faced in the 1950s and
8
the levels and types of discrimination?
9
MR. RANEY:
10
lack of opportunity.
11
a black serving the public in downtown retail
12
Lawrence at that point in time and for a number of
13
years following that even.
14
country.
15
(10:26:43).
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Just what we think as a classic
The top jobs, there was not
It was a low wage
And so for many
17
African-Americans were they in that era, in the
18
'50s, denied even access to certain businesses and
19
--
20
MR. RANEY:
There were no haircuts, no food
21
service.
There were no downtown restaurants,
22
maybe out of city limits restaurants, that would
23
serve a black.
24
(10:27:04)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
And I assume it was observable
�6
1
by the housing segregation that that kind of
2
discrimination carried over into housing as well
3
at the time?
4
MR. RANEY:
Well, and just a principle that
5
blacks will not be served food in a restaurant in
6
Lawrence.
7
think in 1957, that was still true.
When Wilt Chamberlain came here, I
8
(10:27:27)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
You mentioned that you served
10
from '65 to '69 on the City Commission.
11
inspired you to run in 1965?
12
MR. RANEY:
What
I thought there were certain
13
delinquencies Lawrence as a community was not
14
offering the broader community base, certainly a
15
swimming pool among them.
16
fair housing aspect and yet that became a very
17
important item on my agenda before long at all, so
18
if I had a single incentive to run for the City
19
Commission it was to tend to level the playing
20
field.
21
(10:28:10)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
I thought less of the
You had, we had talked
23
also earlier about at your pharmacy kind of a
24
cross section of community leaders and others in
25
the town would gather there for breakfast and
�7
1
you'd talk about the issues of the day.
2
kind of issues come up in your discussions then?
3
MR. RANEY:
Did these
You know, not so very much.
When
4
these things were formalized in terms of votable
5
issues, whether it be just the commission or the
6
larger community in the case of the swimming pool,
7
then those were issues almost exclusively talked
8
of, but prior to that time, memory fails me, I
9
don't -- we had a lot of fun but I don't know what
10
we talked about.
11
(10:28:54)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, fair enough.
13
served from '65 to '69.
14
run again?
15
You only
Why did you decide not to
You had mentioned just --
MR. RANEY:
I was busy.
I had the drug
16
stores here and interests in Emporia, Coffeyville,
17
Fort Scott, Ottawa.
18
(10:29:10)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
21
Right.
Were you pleased with
what you accomplished during your four years?
MR. RANEY:
Oh, I would love to have been
22
able to serve longer, but I think my primary
23
mission had been at least partially served.
24
(10:29:28)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I'm going to get, before
�8
1
we get into a more detailed discussion of the fair
2
housing and your time on the City Commission I
3
just want to ask you again some general questions
4
about what Lawrence was like in that era.
5
would you describe, you know -- you've talked a
6
little bit about the kind of discrimination that
7
was apparent but how would you describe kind of
8
the tenor of race relations between the white and
9
the black community at that time?
10
MR. RANEY:
How
Well, I think it was best
11
described by a industrialist that occurred, a
12
meeting occurred even after I was off the
13
commission and the industrialist said that when a
14
patrol car cruised East Lawrence all the black
15
children waved at the policeman and some black in
16
the back of the room said, well, if you didn't
17
wave you got hit over the head.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MR. RANEY:
20
Huh.
And that probably well described
a fundamental problem.
21
(10:30:33)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now obviously by the
23
late '60s, early '70s, racial tension kind of
24
broke out into some unfortunate violence in
25
Lawrence but --
�9
1
MR. RANEY:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, --- earlier in the decade, in the
3
'60s, did you sense that kind of building
4
frustration and tension within the black
5
community?
6
MR. RANEY:
Not prior to '65.
By '67
7
anti-Vietnam sentiments were running very, very
8
high, particularly at the university level,
9
because those were the students most affected.
10
They were going to Vietnam and too many of them
11
were getting killed.
12
(10:31:10)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
And did you see, did you have a
14
sense that there was kind of an intersection
15
between the two issues, that of the race issues
16
and the Vietnam protest issues?
17
18
MR. RANEY:
As a tertiary thing but not a
primary.
19
(10:31:24)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
And how about the
21
protests at the university?
Obviously, you know,
22
reflected issues related to Vietnam and probably
23
kind of a reflection of national racial issues,
24
but as a local issue and the concerns of local
25
African-American residents what would you say were
�10
1
some of their key frustrations in that time frame?
2
You've mentioned the swimming pool as one.
3
MR. RANEY:
Basic services.
They were
4
remiss.
I think the large, larger, older black
5
population were not particularly expecting that
6
kind of thing.
7
to understand better segregation, what was
8
happening to them that their parents might have
9
accepted but they wondered whether they should
The younger people were beginning
10
accept those things.
11
(10:32:20)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And it's interesting you
13
bring that up but one of the previous
14
interviewers, or interviews that I conducted the
15
interviewee mentioned that the high school was
16
kind of a hot bed of racial frustration among some
17
of the African-American students.
18
sense of that or observe any of that?
19
MR. RANEY:
Did you have a
It permeated the entire community
20
and it focused around the high school.
There were
21
some very articulate black voices being heard and
22
stimulating, well, the need for one black
23
cheerleader seemed to be outrageous in certain
24
areas of the white community.
25
reasonable when most of the starting football
It seemed very
�11
1
players, or at least half of them, were black and
2
they couldn't have one black cheerleader.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MR. RANEY:
5
(10:33:11)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
It was purely offensive.
Yes.
We mentioned a little,
7
talked a little bit about the pool, but in 1960
8
there was an initial protest by a number of
9
African-Americans over denial of access to the
10
Jayhawk Plunge, which was a private pool, but
11
frustration that there was no public pool
12
available to them and that they couldn't have
13
access to the private pool.
14
what was the reaction of kind of people generally
15
in Lawrence over those protests and was there
16
concern that this was the beginning of a larger
17
movement that would continue?
18
MR. RANEY:
Did those protests --
I don't know that the thought was
19
it was going to be a larger issue in the future.
20
It was a very painful issue focused on that very
21
thing.
22
whatever it was called, and denied blacks the
23
option of paying their 25 cents and swimming and
24
the community had some articulate voices
25
supporting the lady's being able to discriminate
A lady owned the Jayhawk, or the Plunge,
�12
1
on that basis.
2
thesis.
Others rose up against that
3
(10:34:28)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
What would you say in general
5
terms was the, were the primary impediments to
6
bringing about change or any, or groups within the
7
community that were most resistant to change and
8
what their motives were?
9
MR. RANEY:
I don't know that they were
10
groups as such.
I think the Klan existed in
11
Lawrence at that point in time.
12
minimize the Klan's influence on community affairs
13
and yet maybe the Klan had some influence, but
14
there were articulate voices that were as
15
segregationist as Alabama ever dreamed of being.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MR. RANEY:
18
(10:35:09)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
I would like to
Huh.
Georgia or Mississippi.
Right.
And would you say that
20
was just kind of a cross section of the community
21
among some people who had particularly --
22
MR. RANEY:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MR. RANEY:
25
Well, I would think --- racist points of view?
-- numerically those
segregationist voices were few, but they happened
�13
1
to be loud.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
MR. RANEY:
Okay.
And in some cases quite
4
influential in the affairs, in the affairs of the
5
community.
6
(10:35:29)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
And others may have been
8
reluctant to stand up to them or speak out against
9
them because of fearing of being singled out or
10
11
ostracized or targeted?
MR. RANEY:
Well, it didn't seem like there
12
were enough integrationists being heard at that
13
point in time.
14
(10:35:45)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
One group that that
16
seems to have gotten involved, as we look at some
17
of the community organizations that were fighting
18
discriminatory practices, were often associated
19
with the university faculty members, students.
20
what extent would you say that the presence of the
21
university in Lawrence helped to spur change by
22
making people more aware of some of these issues
23
and why they needed to be reversed or changed?
24
25
MR. RANEY:
To
I think the best example of that
would be Franklin Murphy, then the chancellor of
�14
1
Kansas University, later the president of UCLA and
2
then president of the Los Angeles Times, but at
3
the time he was here he had gathered the
4
restaurant owners of Lawrence together and made a
5
pronouncement that if they didn't start serving
6
blacks as they served whites, that the K.U. Union
7
was going to start serving T-bone steaks at a
8
price that they couldn't compete with and suddenly
9
almost all the restaurants in Lawrence opened up
10
their doors to the black community.
11
(10:36:56)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And the impetus for that
13
meeting between him and the restaurant owners has
14
actually been related to us.
15
Chamberlain, Homer Floyd, Charlie Tidwell, and,
16
oh, the other name is escaping me, a fourth
17
athlete.
18
chancellor and threatened to leave school --
They actually went and met with the
19
MR. RANEY:
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
22
23
24
25
It was Wilt
Yeah.
-- if he didn't address that
issue, but it sounds like -MR. RANEY:
Gale Sayers was a member of that
group.
MR. ARNOLD:
But it sounds as if that had a
real meaningful impact.
�15
1
2
MR. RANEY:
Economics became an issue with
regard to the restaurant owners.
3
(10:37:34)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Do you remember any
5
specific incidents or problems that might have
6
motivated some people to start taking action and
7
addressing issues, such as, I mean, obviously that
8
meeting of the athletes with Chancellor Murphy was
9
one example, but does anything else come to mind
10
in those early years of things that really stirred
11
some people to action, particular events?
12
MR. RANEY:
I think just getting the
13
attention of the white community, the vast
14
majority of whom were not objecting to the
15
integrated nature of this community, that the
16
community should be more integrated just came to
17
mind.
It was not a preconceived thing.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MR. RANEY:
Right.
But it seemed so reasonable to
20
the vast majority, not to everyone, and to those
21
that didn't seem to accept that, they seemed to
22
have the loudest voices.
23
(10:38:40)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
That's interesting you mention
that because I don't know whether you recall but
�16
1
at the time the Human Relations Commission was
2
working on the Fair Housing Ordinance, before they
3
actually presented it to the City Commission a
4
signature drive was conducted to try and get
5
people to sign a statement that they supported
6
integrated housing in Lawrence and over a thousand
7
people signed it, so a pretty substantial portion
8
of the population of a relatively small town.
9
Would that then not have surprised you that that
10
number of people were willing to speak out?
11
MR. RANEY:
12
since forgotten it.
13
at that.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MR. RANEY:
You remind me of that.
I'd long
I don't think I was surprised
Yes.
That someone had the energy and
16
the integrity to make that petition a petition was
17
maybe the surprising thing.
18
(10:39:30)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And it's interesting, if
20
you look at, and the city has actually plotted
21
out, because the signatures or the names of
22
supporters that was published in the Journal-World
23
included their addresses and the city plotted out
24
where all those addresses were and it was actually
25
quite widely dispersed throughout Lawrence.
It
�17
1
makes it appear that there was pretty widespread
2
support for those kinds of changes, which must
3
have been encouraging to those of you who thought
4
such changes were needed.
5
MR. RANEY:
6
(10:40:00)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
I'd almost forgotten about that.
Yes.
Did you ever feel any
8
pressure as a member of the City Commission from
9
some people, or even as a business owner who
10
worked with the, you know, who welcomed the black
11
community as customers, did you feel pressure from
12
certain segments to not be as willing to make
13
changes that would be beneficial to
14
African-Americans or to do business with
15
African-Americans?
16
MR. RANEY:
Not so much doing business but
17
incorporating African-Americans into your service
18
core, whether it be a waiter, a waitress, someone
19
behind a cosmetic counter or somebody mixing a
20
chocolate ice cream soda.
21
community was noticeably missing and they wanted
22
jobs but they knew better than to apply.
23
(10:40:54)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
That's where the black
Interesting.
You had mentioned,
and I found it fascinating because it's maybe not
�18
1
a recognized element of the story of Tiger
2
Dowdell, who obviously was tragically shot in some
3
of the violence, but that he had worked for you at
4
one point?
5
MR. RANEY:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. RANEY:
He was our evening deliveryman.
Okay.
Very popular with the girls that
8
he hauled across the campus with our delivery
9
vehicle.
10
(10:41:17)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
said?
13
MR. RANEY:
14
(10:41:21)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
Because he gave them rides, you
Yes, free rides.
Great.
Did you have other
African-American employees?
17
MR. RANEY:
18
(10:41:25)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
And did you feel any pressure or
20
take any criticism over hiring, having, you know,
21
racially mutual hiring practices?
22
MR. RANEY:
Certainly no criticism directed
23
at me.
24
frightening to be affected that way.
25
I probably was a little too big and too
(10:41:46)
�19
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
In addition to your
2
position on the City Commission, as well as your
3
role as obviously a fairly prominent businessman,
4
were you involved in any other community
5
organizations that tried to promote ends to
6
discrimination or address discriminatory
7
practices?
8
9
MR. RANEY:
commission.
Not prior to my service on the
Post-commission I was on the Ballard
10
board, Headquarters [Counseling Center],
11
Cottonwood, KANU, the university radio station, a
12
number of university committees.
13
(10:42:24)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now, when we talked
15
earlier, and again, you don't need to mention any
16
names whatsoever, but you had mentioned one
17
incident when you were having lunch at the
18
Eldridge Hotel of hearing something that kind of
19
helped to motivate you to want to serve --
20
MR. RANEY:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Tremendously.
-- on the City Commission and
22
make a change in the community.
23
that story to us?
24
25
MR. RANEY:
Can you relate
This is fully a year before I
declared my candidacy, and I ran away from the
�20
1
drug store once or twice a month and was able to
2
have lunch at the Red Slipper Room in the Eldridge
3
Hotel.
4
The place was very busy and the maitre d'
5
said there was one table of four with two guys
6
sitting there and he would check with them and if
7
it was okay with them if I sat with them, and I
8
sort of knew them and I sort of didn't but they
9
were two leading Lawrence industrialists, and
10
speaking of the swimming pool in this regard, not
11
the Fair Housing Ordinance, "the darkies could
12
swim in the river; they didn't drown very often
13
anyway, did they?"
14
lady who wanted to eliminate or deny blacks access
15
to her swimming pool.
16
despair.
17
I didn't want them to grow up that way.
And that was defensive of the
It gave me a sense of
I had two young children at that time.
18
(10:43:46)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
So definitely that was, when you
20
decided to run for the commission incidents like
21
that were in your mind and were symptomatic of the
22
sort of changes you wanted to bring about?
23
MR. RANEY:
Some two years later perhaps, and
24
I was then newly elected to the commission,
25
Chancellor Wescoe brought me a letter that one of
�21
1
those two men had addressed to the chancellor and
2
saying exactly the same thing:
3
just have them buy their own swimming pool if they
4
want to go swimming?
5
do anything about that?"
6
that's about 80 to 90 percent of the reason I ran
7
for the commission."
8
(10:44:30)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, why don't we
And he said, "Dick, can you
And I said, "Well,
Interesting.
You had also
10
related to me an incident where someone came to
11
your pharmacy one day and made kind of a veiled
12
threat about the Klan possibly not being happy
13
with some of the things you were doing.
14
just relate that again?
15
be mentioned.
16
MR. RANEY:
Can you
Again, no names need to
Well, that was about it.
He was
17
a dedicated customer and patient and I was
18
surprised that he addressed me on that score
19
because he knew me well enough to know where I
20
stood but he told me candidly that some of the
21
Klan members were terribly disappointed in me,
22
they were my patients and customers in many cases,
23
and he said, "Dick, would you like to see a list
24
of them?"
25
I said, "No, I think I'll be very happy to sleep
He pulled a list out of his pocket and
�22
1
very tight tonight and not know their names."
2
I'm sorry I didn't.
3
(10:45:32)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
MR. RANEY:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
And was that -I didn't look at that list.
Was that while you were a member
of the City Commission or --
8
MR. RANEY:
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MR. RANEY:
11
Now
Yes.
-- was that before?
Yes, that was, yes.
That was
when we were dealing with those issues, --
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MR. RANEY:
14
(10:45:44)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
-- fair housing, swimming pool.
So clearly there were some
16
people in town who weren't necessarily happy with
17
the direction things were --
18
MR. RANEY:
19
(10:45:49)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
22
Terribly unhappy.
That's disappointing to hear but
not surprising, I guess.
When you became a member of the commission,
23
you've already mentioned the swimming pool, but
24
what particular issues were you most concerned
25
about and most hopeful that you could bring about
�23
1
2
positive change?
MR. RANEY:
You know, I don't think I had a
3
long-range view beyond those issues we've already
4
visited concerning.
5
streets, but these were mechanical things.
6
a gifted city manager, Ray Wells.
We were interested in better
We had
7
Ray, incidentally, was a spiritual guide in
8
our efforts to create the Fair Housing Ordinance
9
and the swimming pool.
He offered us lovely
10
guidance.
11
manager, knowing what he thought we should be
12
thinking about in terms of improving this
13
community.
14
Ray was a far-seeking, far-looking
Ray was a mechanical guy, too.
He knew the
15
pressure behind all the fire hydrants in town, so
16
he wasn't just a dreamer, he was a technician, and
17
excellent in both regards.
18
(10:47:15)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
How would you
20
characterize the receptivity of the commission at
21
the time in April, 1967, when the Fair Housing
22
Ordinance was brought up to you?
23
with a fairly open mind or were there set
24
positions already do you think?
25
MR. RANEY:
Was it greeted
You know, with the passage of
�24
1
that ordinance I was amazed, I think all of our
2
commissioners, amazed at how little organized or
3
even how little outspokenness there was denying
4
the validity of that as a thing the community
5
should be about.
6
probably quietly didn't like for it to happen but
7
they didn't articulate a case, nor did they try.
8
(10:48:15)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
I think there were those that
Was fair housing would you say
10
an issue that was at all on your radar or
11
something that you felt like was a concern of the
12
public or were you, did you anticipate that that
13
was an issue that was going to come up to the
14
commission?
15
MR. RANEY:
I don't know what my anticipation
16
might have been or any of our commissioners.
With
17
near unanimity, when addressed to this as a
18
problem, with near unanimous consent the
19
commission agreed that that was a problem that we
20
had.
21
anticipating that.
22
our capacities, but once it was presented to us
23
people that objected were, almost all the people
24
that objected were just a few realtors, and only a
25
few of them.
I don't know how far-sighted we were in
I wouldn't want to exaggerate
�25
1
(10:49:17)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
There was actually a group
3
called the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating
4
Commission, I don't know whether you remember them
5
at all, but they were kind of --
6
MR. RANEY:
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Very little.
-- an umbrella organization of
8
the NAACP, the League of Women Voters, the United
9
Church Women of Lawrence.
I know probably as a
10
city commissioner you may have met periodically
11
with some of those kinds of community groups.
12
you remember any of the particular issues or
13
concerns that they would bring up to you or was
14
fair housing one of them or it so long ago that
15
it's difficult to remember?
16
MR. RANEY:
Fair housing was one and there
17
were other issues but I would be remiss in
18
thinking that I remembered much.
19
(10:49:54)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Do
Okay.
Obviously the Human
21
Relations Commission played a pretty important
22
role in both constructing the ordinance and then
23
in making the case for it to the commission and
24
they had just had it presented to them as a
25
proposal by this Fair Housing Coordinating
�26
1
Commission in January and then presented it to the
2
commission in April.
3
the relationship between the City Commission and
4
the Human Relations Commission in that time frame?
5
Was it a group you all trusted their judgment?
6
know it was a number of fairly prominent citizens
7
in town who were --
8
MR. RANEY:
9
How would you characterize
I
Well, Fred Six articulated the
Human Relations Commission's goals eloquently.
10
Fred was a bright young attorney then, later
11
became, as we know, a Kansas Supreme Court
12
justice.
13
such an articulate, understandable, reasoned way
14
that you would have to be pretty stubborn not to
15
listen carefully.
Fred presented his commission's views in
16
(10:51:02)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Very good.
And he was really
18
the primary author, and I asked him how that fell
19
into his lap.
20
secretary of the Human Relations Commission or the
21
fact that he was an attorney, but he ended up
22
being really the primary author of the ordinance.
23
24
25
It was either because he was the
MR. RANEY:
I don't think we changed one word
in the ordinance as he presented it to us.
(10:51:24)
�27
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
And it was interesting
2
that he modeled it after, and I don't know whether
3
you recall this, but a great deal of it was
4
modeled after Iowa City, --
5
MR. RANEY:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. RANEY:
We thought we were the No. 2 city
8
in the country.
I don't know that we were, but we
9
felt that we were.
10
(10:51:38)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Iowa City.
-- Iowa, because --
Yes.
Well, so you don't recall
12
that there was any effort to wordsmith or fight
13
over any of the wording, it was pretty well
14
accepted as it was written?
15
16
MR. RANEY:
I think exactly as it was
written.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. RANEY:
19
(10:51:53)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
That's my memory.
There were a couple of things in
21
the ordinance that I just wanted to ask you a
22
question about.
23
was unusual compared to other similar ordinances,
24
but one of the penalties for a violation was 30
25
days in jail.
One was, and I don't think this
�28
1
MR. RANEY:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
I don't remember that.
I was just going to ask you,
3
that sounded like something that maybe the real
4
estate agents would have found a little
5
controversial.
6
7
MR. RANEY:
Some of my protagonists might
have enjoyed my being in jail at least 30 days.
8
(10:52:20)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Another thing that was in the
10
ordinance, and this was kind of interesting, it
11
was sort of a, kind of a positive appeal to the
12
good will of the people of Lawrence but it said,
13
"The City of Lawrence is a center of culture whose
14
democratic principles are being constantly
15
observed by foreign students and visitors from all
16
over the world," and then it went on to kind of
17
justify, use that as a justification for why we
18
should have fair housing in the city.
19
kind of larger consideration something that the
20
commission viewed persuasively?
21
MR. RANEY:
22
(10:52:57)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Was that
I think so.
So really the city's reputation
24
was, besides just doing the right thing the city's
25
reputation was certainly something of concern?
�29
1
MR. RANEY:
We represented the flagship
2
university in the state of Kansas and for honestly
3
several states around and that we should as a
4
community be so far behind an enlightened
5
university attitude was offensive to many of us
6
wanting to call Lawrence our home.
7
(10:53:25)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
10
And I don't know whether you
recall but both, I think it was Vice Chancellor
Surface wrote a letter --
11
MR. RANEY:
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Jim Surface.
Jim Surface wrote a letter to
13
the commission at the time supporting the
14
ordinance and saying it conformed with the
15
university's housing policies at that time, which
16
had gone through their own process of evolution
17
till they had finally embraced nondiscrimination
18
in university housing, but also Ted Owens, who was
19
then the basketball coach, wrote you all a letter
20
and said how important this was to him because
21
when he went out to recruit athletes he would
22
promote Lawrence as a city which would be
23
desirable for them, and particularly selling it to
24
their parents, desirable to having their student
25
athlete attend the university there, so was the
�30
1
university's support important to you all in the
2
process?
3
MR. RANEY:
Oh, very much so.
As a sidebar
4
to that, I later appointed Ted, with support of
5
the commission, to the Human Relations Commission,
6
and I imagine 35 to 50 faculty members, many of
7
whom I didn't know, came to me with their support,
8
and maybe of those 50 only two of the 50 would not
9
support the ordinance.
10
(10:54:43)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
You made a comment
12
that was quoted in the Journal-World, I think at
13
the time that the ordinance was presented to you,
14
in which you praised it as, quote, a magnificent
15
piece of work, so obviously you personally were
16
quite pleased with the product that the Human
17
Relations Commission had brought up to you.
18
you think that was a reflection, again, kind of
19
the open-mindedness of the commission or a
20
recognition of the quality of work that the Human
21
Relations Commission had done in putting it
22
together?
23
MR. RANEY:
The commission was a gifted
24
commission, in my judgment, and I think with
25
perhaps only one minor exception on the City
Do
�31
1
Commission that that was felt.
2
(10:55:32)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
When the commission held
4
hearings or -- and I know none of your meetings
5
were devoted strictly to this issue, but in going
6
back and reading the newspaper accounts, at one
7
meeting you all heard the proponents and then at a
8
separate meeting the mostly real estate business
9
representatives came in to speak in opposition.
10
Were you simply persuaded by one case over the
11
other or --
12
MR. RANEY:
I think even in the case of the
13
real estate community, and I don't think the
14
majority of that community was represented by
15
those opposed to the ordinance, I think the basis
16
for their objections were so shallow, in our
17
judgment, simplistic and out of date that they
18
were easily overlooked.
19
unanimous, always supportive of the ordinance, and
20
in a way trying to assure realtor X that this
21
wouldn't ruin him.
22
(10:56:49)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I think our votes were
I'm going to mention
24
some names to you of people who may have played an
25
important role, just to help stimulate your
�32
1
memory, and tell me, you know, what your
2
impressions of them were and the role they played.
3
We've already talked about Fred Six, but another
4
person who's been mentioned as helping to sell the
5
case was Glenn Kappelman, who was a realtor
6
himself and a member of the Human Relations
7
Commission and was very supportive of fair
8
housing.
9
you?
10
11
Do you recall how he may have influenced
MR. RANEY:
An elegant, lovely human with all
of the right instincts.
12
(10:57:26)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Another person that was brought
14
up by Fred Six who he thought played an important
15
role just because he was such a prominent local
16
businessman was Mike Getto, who I guess owned the
17
Eldridge at the time?
18
MR. RANEY:
19
His, Mike Getto, Sr.'s,
father-in-law owned the Eldridge.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MR. RANEY:
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. RANEY:
Okay.
Billy Hutson.
Okay.
And then his, Mike Getto's son
24
served two years on the City Commission with me,
25
and I still maintain a friendship with him.
He
�33
1
lives in California.
2
fellow commissioners are all now gone.
3
(10:58:05)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
I think the balance of my
That's too bad.
Another name
5
that comes up frequently is a leader in the
6
African-American community who also I think helped
7
to make the case for the need of the ordinance,
8
because he was a victim himself of housing issues,
9
was Jesse Milan.
10
MR. RANEY:
Jesse was a well qualified
11
educator, articulate, deserving of a place on the
12
commission.
13
think Lawrence suffered as a result of that.
He ran and did not get elected.
14
(10:58:36)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I
Another individual who
16
came forward was Homer Floyd, former K.U. athlete
17
who at that time was serving as the director of
18
the Civil Rights Commission for the State of
19
Kansas.
20
21
MR. RANEY:
A gifted young man, not only on
the football field but intellectually.
22
(10:58:53)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Very good.
So it sounds as if
24
there was very much of a cross-section of support,
25
which must have given you confidence as you moved
�34
1
forward, and fairly narrow opposition that clearly
2
was not convincing to the commission at the time.
3
MR. RANEY:
Well, we made a lot of friends
4
from that effort that we probably would never have
5
made otherwise.
6
(10:59:16)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I'm going to ask you one
8
fairly specific question and if you simply don't
9
recall this that's fair, but there was actually a
10
newspaper article that mentioned a meeting at John
11
Emick's' home with the city attorney and some
12
other city commissioners in late June in which
13
there was some discussion of possible changes to
14
the ordinance, and do you recall that at all?
15
MR. RANEY:
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MR. RANEY:
18
part of that meeting.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MR. RANEY:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. RANEY:
25
Okay.
I don't think I must have been a
Yes, I'm just -Now, Commissioner Emick served
the commission beyond my term.
22
24
I don't recall that.
Okay.
So it might be that that was
after my tenure, I'm not sure.
(10:59:59)
�35
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Would that have been
2
unusual, that business meetings were being held
3
informally like that?
4
MR. RANEY:
Yes.
I'm surprised that it
5
happened, because that would be unheard of in my
6
--
7
(11:00:07)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Okay.
There was also some
mention that a couple of people suggested that the
10
ordinance should have been put to a public
11
referendum.
12
that or did you ever feel any pressure to do that?
Was there ever any consideration of
13
MR. RANEY:
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MR. RANEY:
16
Not, not by this commission.
Okay.
There might have been voices
outside, but not in this commission.
17
(11:00:31)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
So no discussion among
19
yourselves that you would ever have considered
20
doing that?
21
MR. RANEY:
We were so unanimous in our
22
thinking, both appointed commissions and elected
23
commissions.
24
(11:00:42)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Very good.
Did you have any
�36
1
concerns about what the public reaction would be,
2
whether there would be any negative reaction
3
towards that, or did you feel --
4
MR. RANEY:
From the drug store/soda fountain
5
point of view there was very little mention made,
6
very little.
7
(11:01:00)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Good.
So given the passage of
the Fair Housing Ordinance and the fact that there
10
didn't seem to be much overt opposition to it
11
would you say, and I think we've already kind of
12
touched on this, but if you could just elaborate
13
on your thoughts, that the community in general,
14
other than some small group of voices, was fairly
15
receptive to change?
16
MR. RANEY:
I think they were almost
17
inattentive, nonplussed.
18
only affected those people in the commercial area,
19
residential, commercial area.
20
private homeowners, it didn't affect a person that
21
had a spare bedroom that they would rent to a
22
student.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MR. RANEY:
25
You see, this ordinance
It didn't affect
Right.
So unlike the swimming pool,
which affected taxpayers, affected your sense of
�37
1
race being in the swimming pool with a black body,
2
that affected a much larger segment of the
3
community.
4
(11:02:10)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And since you bring up
6
the swimming pool, it was later in 1967 that the
7
bond finally passed to build the public swimming
8
pool but that was, I think, on the third attempt.
9
MR. RANEY:
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
What would you say was the
11
nature of the opposition that caused it to fail
12
the first two times?
13
it simply the public not wanting to put forward
14
the money, or a little of both?
15
16
MR. RANEY:
Was it race concerns or was
I think it was 80 percent race
and maybe 20 percent economics.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. RANEY:
Okay.
I enjoyed my interaction with
19
merchants.
20
microphone.
21
addressing individual merchants and putting the
22
mic. in their face and saying, "Aren't you
23
supportive of the swimming pool?"
24
dare say no.
25
The radio station gave me a
I went up and down the street
(11:03:03)
And they didn't
�38
1
MR. ARNOLD:
And I was going to ask you, the
2
next question is what do you think finally turned
3
the corner in late '67 when that bond initiative
4
passed?
5
but, what finally got it over the top?
And you said it passed fairly narrowly,
6
MR. RANEY:
Well, I think the community
7
conscience prevailed.
8
coming thing, evidenced by the previous
9
rejections.
I think it was a slow
This, as I recall, got a tremendous
10
turnout from the Lawrence public.
11
they had a little stake in this election.
12
(11:03:42)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
Everyone felt
And you mentioned you
14
going around with a microphone to put some
15
business owners on the spot.
16
other efforts of proponents to try and get out the
17
vote and to convince people to vote in favor?
18
19
MR. RANEY:
Do you remember any
Well, I don't remember anything
specifically.
20
(11:04:01)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
A few months before the
22
bond passed, I think in the late summer of '67,
23
the city rented a swimming pool in West Lawrence
24
and made it available to the public as an
25
integrated pool.
Do you remember any of the
�39
1
2
specifics behind what motivated that?
MR. RANEY:
Well, no.
I think it was a
3
suggestion that was easily accepted as a good
4
idea.
5
and it was such a partial solution as to not be
6
thought of as any kind of a solution really.
It was a very hot summer, I recall that,
7
(11:04:43)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Okay.
There's actually a story
that's related, and I think it's in Rusty
10
Monhollon's book, about the '60s in Lawrence in
11
which sometime late in that summer there were
12
threats by some African-American youth towards
13
violence based on a number of their complaints but
14
one of which was not having access to a swimming
15
pool and so there was some suggestion in his book
16
that the commission might have acted because of
17
concerns that they wanted to head off violence.
18
Is that your recollection at all?
19
MR. RANEY:
20
(11:05:11)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
No.
Okay.
Do you have a sense that
22
after both the passage of the Fair Housing
23
Ordinance, the passage of the swimming pool bond,
24
that that had kind of created momentum towards
25
addressing other aspects of discrimination and
�40
1
segregation in Lawrence?
2
was a growing amount of community support?
3
MR. RANEY:
I don't think I had much of a
4
sense of anything.
5
what had happened.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. RANEY:
Did you sense that there
I was just willing to accept
Right.
And that was to me the
8
representation of progress.
9
to go from there.
10
(11:05:53)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I didn't know where
We already talked a
12
little bit about some individuals who kind of
13
played an important role in both promoting the
14
Fair Housing Ordinance.
15
individuals that come to mind, either in that
16
respect or in the civil rights movement in general
17
who were promoting change, or in the swimming pool
18
issue?
19
sure you have an opportunity to recognize any
20
other individuals who you thought played a
21
positive role.
Do you recall any other
Anybody else who -- I just want to make
22
MR. RANEY:
You've certainly touched on some
23
important ones.
24
lovely human, a colleague of Glenn Kappelman's.
25
Cliff was very supportive and in the insurance and
Oh, I remember Cliff Calvin, a
�41
1
real estate business and there were a number of --
2
Bob -- oh my.
3
memory.
Bob Charlton was another supportive
4
person.
Up and down the street.
5
Marks, owned Mark's jewelry store.
6
Weaver quietly supported.
7
number.
8
were many.
You're stretching my ancient
I think Julius
I think Art
Yes, there were a
I'm sorry to only name a few, and there
9
(11:07:10)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
Let me just see if --
11
we've kind of covered a number of things.
12
wanted to talk to you a little bit about national
13
events, such as, you know, things like in 1968 the
14
assassination of Martin Luther King.
15
that, particularly as we got into the late '60s
16
and there was turmoil in the country, and some of
17
that may have spilled over into some of the unrest
18
in Lawrence?
19
perceptions of larger national issues and how they
20
influenced what happened in the community?
21
I just
Did you see
How did you see the community's
MR. RANEY:
Interesting as a sidebar, our
22
commission was meeting with some aggrieved black
23
citizens in the building on Massachusetts, the
24
senior center, and someone came in the room and
25
whispered in this lovely black lady's ear that
�42
1
Martin Luther King had just been killed.
2
there to protest her father, who had been on the
3
garbage truck for 20 some years, never allowed to
4
drive the truck.
5
accident he was always on the back end of the
6
truck, now he was too old to be jumping up and
7
down off that truck and back on, and wondering why
8
her father was where he was.
9
(11:08:34)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
MR. RANEY:
12
MR. ARNOLD:
She was
Even though he'd never had an
Huh.
Yes.
And you had mentioned I think
13
when you were interviewed by Rusty Monhollon, that
14
-- and you actually brought up that meeting in
15
which the word came to the community that Martin
16
Luther King had been assassinated and you said in
17
the book, or he quoted you as saying that when you
18
saw the reaction of the members of the
19
African-American community that was there that
20
night, that you came to the realization that
21
things were about to change in Lawrence.
22
just elaborate on that a little bit and kind of
23
characterize their reaction and what you saw in
24
their eyes that led you to know that this was a
25
groundbreaking event that was going to lead to
Can you
�43
1
2
changes?
MR. RANEY:
Well, it was to me visceral.
I
3
couldn't point to a single thing except what kind
4
of a commission would not address that girl's
5
father?
And we did.
6
(11:09:32)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
And I think often it's
8
the little things like that that end up adding up
9
and making a difference over time.
10
Were you surprised, and this would have been
11
mostly after your tenure on the City Commission,
12
but were you surprised at the kind of unrest and
13
violence that broke out in the late '60s and early
14
'70s in the city and on campus?
15
MR. RANEY:
Well, really not surprised
16
because the nation was rising up against the
17
Vietnam War and we had a concentration of people
18
that age group who were going to be vitally and
19
perhaps terminally fatally affected and so
20
emotions ran very high, not at all surprising.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MR. RANEY:
23
Yes.
Keeping a lid on somehow was the
challenge.
24
(11:10:25)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And I've talked to a
�44
1
couple of members of the, I don't know whether you
2
remember Ron and Don Dalquest, --
3
MR. RANEY:
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
I do.
-- members of the Police
Department, and they --
6
MR. RANEY:
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Twins.
Yes, they are.
And they
8
described the challenges they faced in a very
9
small Police Department --
10
MR. RANEY:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Very small.
-- that was trying to handle
12
this unrest and some of the descriptions that I've
13
read of the violence, you know, gunfire in
14
Lawrence.
15
place and did order seem to be highly tenuous for
16
the average citizen, that you kind of lived in a
17
bit of fear?
18
Did the city seem like a very dangerous
MR. RANEY:
It didn't affect me that way.
I
19
bet it did some.
20
bulletproof, and maybe if I had been my age now I
21
would have been more concerned.
22
I was young enough to be
In terms of affecting the larger community, I
23
can't hardly believe that we felt that way.
We
24
knew the affected population and almost had to
25
stand aside, didn't know how to remedy --
�45
1
MR. ARNOLD:
2
MR. RANEY:
3
(11:11:41)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
Right.
Just kind of had --
-- that war.
Yes.
Kind of had to let it burn
itself out and let the, --
6
MR. RANEY:
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
-- let the frustrations be
8
unleashed and then hopefully order would
9
eventually be restored.
10
Do you feel like as a long-time member of the
11
community that after that very difficult period
12
was over did it play in an unfortunate way any
13
positive role in continuing to promote change in
14
Lawrence?
15
16
MR. RANEY:
I'd have to study that as a
question.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. RANEY:
19
(11:12:12)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I don't have a ready answer.
Yes.
I think often change is
21
incremental and sometimes difficult to measure
22
other than, you know, things like the swimming
23
pool obviously was one that was very visible and
24
affected people immediately, but many other
25
changes, like probably to the Fair Housing
�46
1
Ordinance, --
2
3
MR. RANEY:
There might have been a few dozen
other incremental changes so slight as to --
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
MR. RANEY:
6
(11:12:34)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
-- be hard to remember.
Right, right.
In reflecting
8
back on the role you played as a member of the
9
Lawrence City Commission for four years what
10
accomplishments are you most proud of?
11
MR. RANEY:
Oh, I think those two.
I think
12
my public service career is wrapped up with those
13
two.
14
(11:12:59)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Very good.
Thinking back on
16
that fairly tumultuous period and the struggles of
17
people to bring about change, what do you think
18
young people today can learn from that and take
19
away as lessons in terms of promoting social
20
change and community activism today to try and
21
make Lawrence, or any community, a better place?
22
MR. RANEY:
Well, I'm pleased that we're so
23
far advanced from where we were in the era that
24
we're talking about here today.
25
are mountains yet to be climbed, but, oh, we're in
Certainly there
�47
1
better shape now and progress is yet to be made.
2
(11:13:49)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
One thing that's
4
fairly evident in going back and looking at how
5
the fair housing issue worked its way up to
6
finally getting to the Human Relations Commission
7
and then to the City Commission is that it was
8
very much or in very many respects kind of a
9
bottom-up community-based movement that involved
10
organizations, as I mentioned before, the NAACP,
11
the League of Women Voters, there was a group
12
called the League for the Promotion of Democracy,
13
other groups like that.
14
kind of community-based social activism is a way
15
to bring about positive change even though it can
16
sometimes take a long time?
17
MR. RANEY:
Do you believe that that
Well, I certainly thought that in
18
that era past.
I was an enthusiastic member of
19
the Elizabeth Ballard Center, North Lawrence, Penn
20
House, Cottonwood, Headquarters.
21
properly motivated and represented advances in our
22
community as an attitude, so yes, I'm enthusiastic
23
in that sort of effort.
24
(11:15)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Those were
Are you still involved in any of
�48
1
those --
2
MR. RANEY:
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MR. RANEY:
5
(11:15:07)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
No.
-- types of efforts?
I became too long of tooth.
But I'm sure you probably are
7
still associated with people who are, and I know
8
you represent a member of the community who's had
9
a long history of trying to bring about positive
10
11
change.
MR. RANEY:
Well, with the help of my
12
grandsons we still enjoy contributing to all those
13
things we can manage.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
end of my questions.
16
the opportunity if there's anything we didn't
17
cover or any other stories you remember that you
18
want to have the opportunity to relate while
19
you're here I open the floor up to you for
20
anything you'd like to add.
21
MR. RANEY:
22
have enjoyed it.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
Well, I have come to the
I just wanted to give you
Tom, it's been a good visit.
I
Thank you.
Well, great.
Well, thank you
24
very much, and again, thank you for participating
25
in our project and thank you for the important
�49
1
role you played in bringing about the Fair Housing
2
Ordinance in Lawrence.
3
MR. RANEY:
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
MR. RANEY:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Minimal.
Minimal.
All right, sir.
Good luck.
Thank you very much.
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Raney, Richard
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Richard Raney
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Richard Raney, who was the mayor of Lawrence at the time the city's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 19, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Raney, Richard
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/19/2016
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/richard-raney-audio-only-hi?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>Click <a href="https://youtu.be/6k_dInoIWPg">here</a> to view the video recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RaneyInterview101916.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1940s - 1967
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/496a73e24c944d8b437381dc234ed9c3.pdf
b31c358c3419c7efa599d84f6eea0796
PDF Text
Text
1
1
2
CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
3
4
LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
5
50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
6
7
8
9
10
11
Interview of Jesse Milan
12
October 21, 2016
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15
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�2
1
(17:32:49)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is October 21st, 2016.
I
3
am local historian Tom Arnold, interviewing Dr.
4
Jesse Milan in his apartment in the Victory Hills
5
Senior Living Community in Kansas City, Kansas,
6
for the City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance
7
50th Anniversary Oral History Project [also
8
present were Scott Wagner and Kurt Henning of the
9
City of Lawrence].
10
At the time the ordinance passed in July,
11
1967, Dr. Milan was a teacher in the Lawrence
12
public school system and the president of the
13
Lawrence chapter of the NAACP.
14
DR. MILAN:
15
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Dr. Milan, please tell me a
16
little bit about your background, including what
17
brought you to Lawrence initially.
18
DR. MILAN:
What brought me to Lawrence, when
19
I was in Kansas City I went my senior year at
20
Sumner High School.
21
graduate at Sumner, and I was on Kansas Avenue
22
delivering my paper, I sold The Call paper every
23
Friday, and on the Parallel streetcar was a sign
24
that says:
25
in college.
In '46 I was going to
Two years in the military, four years
I said, what?
�3
1
So I signed up and volunteered for the
2
military and when I got out of the military and I
3
applied for Kansas University and they assisted me
4
with federal government financial assistance from
5
that as my salary.
6
I spent two years in, one year in Anniston,
7
Alabama, with that and then I was stationed, I
8
couldn't tell you the name of the base there, and
9
I was, we were, for my place where I took my, what
10
do you call it, the initial --
11
(17:34:50)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
DR. MILAN:
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
DR. MILAN:
Your basic training?
Yes.
Well, no, as a soldier.
Okay.
They shipped me to this, on this
16
base in Anniston, Alabama, I forget the name of
17
it, and it was, at that time it was very
18
segregated, only a black group that I belonged to
19
at that time, and when we arrived at the base the
20
base commander of that came to accept us and
21
receive us and talk to us and inspect us.
22
As he went around, and about 22 of us, and he
23
went to his office and made an appointment of one
24
of us to serve as a military policeman, Army
25
policemen they were, and guess who he chose?
Me.
�4
1
And I was surprised, because I was asked by the
2
leader to lead a demonstration of drilling the
3
squad and I drilled my squad, because I did that
4
in high school.
5
I was at Sumner High School.
I was a
6
graduate of Sumner High School.
When they took my
7
picture many years later after that -- it's on the
8
wall right there.
9
That's on Minnesota Avenue.
See that picture behind you?
I'm one of the first
10
black persons they put up there on that picture,
11
then they put a few after that.
12
But anyway, I was pleased, and we did a lot
13
of work there, and I was transferred from there
14
to, after one year I was transferred from there to
15
up north, I forget the name of that city, but
16
anyway, I was transferred from there to the base
17
in Honolulu, Hawaii, and made the football team,
18
played football.
19
And another big mistake, I was chosen, based
20
on my performance as a football player during the
21
seasons, as a quarterback and right halfback.
22
a black person.
23
many black quarterbacks playing professional
24
football period, and I had a great time playing.
25
I'm
In those days there wasn't too
I used to have fun coming to the line of
�5
1
scrimmage when the ball got there I'd use
2
deception and I'd say to the big dude, "Hey, big
3
daddy, I'm coming your way."
4
a time, but I played good.
5
we lost games, we won a game, but that was an
6
honor to have been chosen for so many things like
7
that that I didn't apply for.
8
way you performed.
9
(17:38:10)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
DR. MILAN:
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
DR. MILAN:
15
(17:38:22)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
20
21
22
They just liked the
What years were those when you
Oh, -Late 1940s?
Yes.
Yes.
And then after you left the Army
and decided to use your GI Bill to --
18
19
We won the game, but
were in the Army, do you recall?
12
17
Oh, it was a heck of
DR. MILAN:
To finish my work at, to go to
K.U.
MR. ARNOLD:
-- go to K.U., why did you
choose the University of Kansas and Lawrence?
DR. MILAN:
Well, I attended, my kids
23
attended school in Lawrence.
I had four kids,
24
they graduated, they all over the years, and I had
25
a lot of friendships in Lawrence and a lot of
�6
1
contacts, and I belonged to Kappa Alpha Psi, which
2
I lived in a fraternity house in Lawrence, new
3
chapter.
4
And so how I got there, there was a lady
5
teacher at the University of Kansas, she was in
6
charge of the women department for women attending
7
K.U. in the P.E. Department, and I did a lot of
8
teaching, members of the class, we all did, all of
9
us, we would have to do this this day, we would do
10
this day, one day, and I was appointed by her to
11
teach in the public school system.
12
give it a try; that's why I'm here."
13
I say, "I'll
And, but she didn't just send me to the black
14
school, she sent me to Hillcrest, and I went up
15
there and I had a great reception, and I did a lot
16
of things.
17
One of my most famous philosophy was using
18
the thesis in the Matthew 30:32:
19
neighbor as yourself.
20
have them do unto you.
21
Love your
Do unto others as you'd
And so -- because at the elementary grades
22
they're not in their classroom solid in terms of
23
playing games.
24
the object, they'd come in and have very poor
25
listening skills, because teacher would come by
I didn't just play games, I said
�7
1
and do things with them, and I said, my
2
introduction to them was that I am here to help
3
you learn how to play games with each other and do
4
other things and the object of that is to help you
5
improve your listening skills to listen to the
6
teacher, to see what she says to you and how to
7
explain the -- one of the most, even today,
8
difficult problems for the students is
9
mathematics, arithmetic, and so they improved
10
that, and then the other way I, other activity
11
that I used, one of them, was not just that, was
12
square dancing.
13
14
Have you square danced?
danced?
15
MR. WAGNER:
16
DR. MILAN:
Oh, no.
Huh?
How could you grow up
17
without square dancing?
18
MR. HENNING:
19
20
21
22
Have you square
I'm going with yes.
I have,
yes.
MR. ARNOLD:
I would say yes, when I was very
young, but not in recent years.
DR. MILAN:
And one of my most mechanized
23
square dancing, I have all my records and things
24
that I did, was the Kansas, square dancing, Kansas
25
song called Home On The Range.
�8
1
(Singing) "Now you dosey around your corner
2
lady one time around, then you see-saw once around
3
your toe, and then you add a minuet with the lady
4
on your neck, run right and left around the hall.
5
Home, home on the range, where the deer and the
6
antelope play, where never is heard a discouraging
7
word."
8
9
Home on the range.
I still have it, and then
I taught it in Lawrence, Kansas, and then my
10
population grew, so I went to every elementary
11
school in the city of Lawrence, Kansas.
12
(17:42:49)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
So after you -- you taught there
14
as a student.
Obviously the school system was
15
happy with you and they hired you as the first
16
African-American teacher in the Lawrence school
17
system, I think that was in 1954?
18
DR. MILAN:
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Uh-huh.
And what was it like being the
20
first African-American teacher in the school
21
system?
22
Did you feel welcomed or did you feel --
DR. MILAN:
Well, I felt welcome because I
23
was hired in Lawrence to -- after that, I was
24
hired in Lawrence first, but I had a lot of
25
community relations.
�9
1
There were not too many white folk but
2
when -- segregation was very, very difficult,
3
because I worked for the city Recreation
4
Department as assistant superintendent of
5
recreation for the City of Lawrence.
6
first one to do that for a black person and the
7
object was for me to improve the quality of the
8
performance and the program of the city Recreation
9
Department and so what I negotiated with K.U. and
I was the
10
other was to bring students to the basketball
11
games and football games and so I did that, so as
12
a result of working with Hillcrest I reached out
13
to all of the schools I was recreation person to
14
work with the city to put a playground at Pinckney
15
Elementary School and Hillcrest Elementary School
16
and Watkins and all of that.
17
Now, one of my most fascinating experience
18
was that one day I got a call, after I received a
19
call from the Ku Klux Klan, and they did a lot of
20
things to try to keep me from being a black
21
teacher to white folks because that's a violation,
22
but I said, "The only thing black were the shoes
23
they wore to school."
24
25
And many of the white teachers were very
friendly with me and asked me, say, "Well, Dr.
�10
1
Milan, why don't we go and have a good time in
2
Kansas City?"
3
but in order for me to do that you would have to
4
give me a check for a thousand dollars."
5
said, "We can't do that."
6
can't go."
7
that time the relationship of the races were very,
8
very rigid, because the Ku Klux Klan, they threw
9
bombs at my house, they threw fire bombs at my --
10
I lived in, when I first started teaching I lived
11
over in North Lawrence, I can't think of the
12
apartment, it's a little, a block south of that --
13
what's the name of that school in, elementary
14
school in Lawrence?
I said, "Well, we could do that,
They
I said, "That's why I
You think I'm going to go and -- at
15
MR. HENNING:
16
DR. MILAN:
Woodlawn.
Woodlawn.
And so I moved into
17
that apartment right there and a person in from
18
the city was interested in me expanding because my
19
family, I had a baby and we were looking for a
20
house, and he came by and introduced himself and
21
helped me build a house on 1211 West Fifth Street.
22
You know where that is?
That's the end of
23
the white movement but the beginning of the black
24
population in the area in that section of
25
Lawrence, because the street that, Fifth Street
�11
1
goes all the way through but on the west side of
2
me was one black person, on the right side of me
3
was a white male, but they told me he was a
4
businessman, and the Ku Klux Klan took and brought
5
a lot of fire things and threw them at my house
6
and in my garage and on my roof and the guy next
7
door would get it and put it out before it caught
8
on fire and had a lot of red stuff of those things
9
in my backyard, and I guess they finally stopped
10
because I was not in a white neighborhood.
11
vacant lot was at the end of the white
12
(indiscernible) movement and then he said, well,
13
I'll -- but he said, you can do it here.
14
That
At that time my wife was working at the
15
hospital in Leavenworth and she was an
16
occupational --
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
DR. MILAN:
Therapist?
Yes.
And so it wasn't too far
19
from Lawrence to go the highway and go to
20
Leavenworth, so -- but across the street I had a
21
black family that really protected my house,
22
because they see a flame going to my house and I
23
was out teaching and they would go and put them
24
out, and one day I tried to get in my garage and
25
it was full of those ashes and I had to clean it
�12
1
2
out.
So I had a tremendous effort from the Douglas
3
County Ku Klux Klan, so one day I got a call to
4
meet some students on a lot in Lawrence, Kansas,
5
five white boys and five black kids, because I was
6
assistant superintendent for the City of Lawrence
7
and helped, and I can't think of his name now, he
8
was the superintendent, and we did a lot of things
9
together and he'd let me do a lot of things
10
11
together.
And when I walked up at about 6:00 o'clock
12
that evening, five white boys over here, five
13
black boys over here.
14
taught all of them, and I say -- it's amazing to
15
see them.
16
said, "We have a special mission to kill you."
17
said, "You gotta be kidding.
18
to kill me when I taught you in school?"
19
ain't no school."
They all had guns.
"Why do you have those guns?"
I
And they
I
Why would you want
"This
20
So I said, "Well, I'll do my best, but
21
remember," I said, "you have to remember what the
22
Bible says:
23
unto others as you'd have them do unto you.
24
I'm sure you haven't read the Bible, otherwise you
25
wouldn't want to kill me."
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Do
And
�13
1
Now, the black kids were there to protect me
2
but the white kids wanted to kill me, but guess
3
what?
4
well, you know, it's interesting how we get along
5
in the classroom, and they all remembered that.
6
They remembered one of the most fascinating things
7
was the activities that I would introduce them,
8
and I took them all, from 200, 300 kids, to every
9
home football game and had the Recreation
After my talking with them and saying,
10
Department and the parents to buy their tickets.
11
I took them to the basketball games, and it was
12
white and black, and so the kids all enjoyed that,
13
so they both just turned away, walked away, and
14
did not kill me.
15
But the Ku Klux Klan did not give up.
So I
16
bought a home, from 1211 West Fifth Street, to buy
17
a place that I wouldn't let them know where I'm
18
moving, so I bought a -- and my family grew, at
19
that time I had three kids, I ended up with four
20
kids, 10th and Alabama.
21
That's one block north of the stadium, two blocks
22
north of the stadium, right on the corner, big
23
two-story house.
24
25
You know where that is?
Okay?
And we had a great time and I had a great
time with the friendship with the kids, and all
�14
1
the summer I ran a playground for the kids in the
2
city, not just one place, at school districts near
3
their neighborhood, McAlister, oh, behind the
4
junior high school there on -- where's it located?
5
Not Maine Street but it's close to Maine Street in
6
Lawrence.
7
Lawrence and Woodlawn.
8
9
And Hillcrest and Sunset and North
It was just a tremendous experience that I
had, and I had many supporters from the white
10
family and I had many of them that were working
11
with the Ku Klux Klan, and they helped me and the
12
kids, I was reported some that would have a
13
meeting every Friday in their school how to
14
protect me, and they did a good job.
15
good lord.
16
They had the
The last one was when on 10th and Alabama
17
they drove up, and I believe my house was on the
18
east side of the street, and they drove up on the
19
west side of the street and threw a bomb over my,
20
over their car and it went toward my house on 10th
21
and Alabama and it exploded while in flight.
22
Now, we were the only black family in that
23
neighborhood and all the white folks come running
24
down there to see what happened, to protect me, so
25
I had a tremendous population in the white
�15
1
population as well that, that they were not all Ku
2
Klux Klan, male and female, and that's the reason
3
I'm still here today.
4
wouldn't be here.
5
(17:53:23)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Had not been for them I
So your neighbors in that
7
all-white neighborhood, they were supportive of
8
having you live there, they welcomed you?
9
10
DR. MILAN:
their kids.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
DR. MILAN:
13
Yes, because they knew I taught
Right.
Okay?
I had a tremendous child
population.
14
(17:53:32)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
So as a teacher you
16
mentioned you were welcomed by your fellow
17
teachers, the Ku Klux Klan did not like having you
18
there.
19
parents?
20
students, did they welcome you?
21
hospitable?
How about your students and the students'
Did they, even the white parents and
22
DR. MILAN:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
DR. MILAN:
25
children.
Were they
Yes.
Good.
Through the message of their
One of the most, second most important
�16
1
things is I developed a square dance club and they
2
enjoyed doing the Texas Star and this as well as
3
the kids, so my job as a Recreation Department for
4
the city, not just for black population but for
5
everyone, and one of the most popular things was
6
that I had many parents who support me because I
7
would take their kids to a basketball game at the
8
Allen Fieldhouse when it was built and I would
9
take them to the football games at Kansas Stadium
10
and help get the tickets through the Recreation
11
Department so that they wouldn't have to pay a
12
whole lot of money for it, and I got many gift for
13
tickets to take the kids to the -- and they all
14
was very, very pleased, so it was the way I
15
treated children, not because they were white, not
16
because they were black, because they were all
17
God's children.
18
And when I became a professor at Baker
19
University that was another wonderful experience.
20
Not only did I teach physical education activity
21
but I taught other kind of subjects of
22
anthropology, and what happened was that they
23
assigned me as the professor from Baker, from the
24
school system in Lawrence -- in Baldwin, I'm
25
sorry.
�17
1
When I become the first black professor at
2
Baker University they assign me not just to teach
3
the students and work with the teachers and
4
performance of the school but to work as the
5
professor to go to the public school system in
6
Baldwin, Kansas, for the placement of student
7
teachers.
8
there were in Baldwin, Kansas?
9
Do you realize how many black schools
None.
But the most fascinating experience, I had to
10
go to talk to the white superintendent about the
11
placement of students at Baker University.
12
that'd be fine, they were familiar with Baker, but
13
they didn't know, but they were amazed because I
14
was not a white professor asking to do that, and
15
they were pleased, and it was very successful, not
16
because I was black but because the kids loved it
17
and I did it, because my philosophy was love your
18
neighbor as yourself and as a result the --
19
(Phone ringing; off the record.)
20
(17:57:44)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
Let me ask you, when you first arrived in
23
Lawrence and in the early years, the 1950s and
24
1960s while you were living there, how would you
25
describe the racial climate, the relationship
Oh,
You are in high demand, sir.
�18
1
2
between the white and the black community?
DR. MILAN:
Very, very, very vitriol
3
(17:58:04), because the black population lived in
4
certain sections.
5
was in North Lawrence, the black folk lived on
6
this side and the white folk lived on that side,
7
and in a very limited space.
8
9
The most integrated population
And what got me where I was in terms of
increasing the performance and the relationship
10
was the -- who was it?
11
He was superintendent of the city Recreation
12
Department, and while I was at K.U. I was an
13
official of the Kansas Relays and he got to know
14
me quite well because I negotiated with him for
15
relay tickets and places to take the kids to, to
16
the games irrespective of race.
17
I did, I took black, white, white kids.
18
take them, they met me at the stadium, at the gate
19
to get in, and they had a special section for all
20
students and they went in.
21
I can't think of his name.
That's one thing
I didn't
Now, one of the things that was fascinating
22
was that after I graduated from K.U. I was
23
assigned as an official in the K.U. Relays and I
24
was there for 40 -- 20 years, and I have a special
25
uniform that I wore; I still have it.
It's in
�19
1
there.
It's when I was -- I'll be wearing it
2
tomorrow.
3
pants and my shirt, I'll show it to you, but what
4
happened is that at Baker there wasn't that very
5
strong relationship between the white students and
6
the black students but I created an organization,
7
because there were some black -- white students
8
who didn't, had never met a black teacher and that
9
was strange to them and I kept saying to them I
10
used the Bible as a thesis to help me understand
11
who I am and what my responsibility is.
12
I'm called a nigger and this and that and I'm
13
black, we couldn't do this and we couldn't do
14
that.
15
had to sit in a black section in the show.
16
you know that?
Every Friday, or Saturday I wear my
I know
Even to go to the theater in Lawrence you
Did
17
(Announcement on the loud speaker about
18
Happy Hour.)
19
DR. MILAN:
Well now, what they do at that
20
session, they have token of some cake or
21
something, wine and beer and mixed drink.
22
(18:01:24)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
DR. MILAN:
25
beer, get that wine.
It sounds very nice.
Oh, a lot of folk get to get that
I don't drink wine.
�20
1
When I was a student at K.U., course I ran
2
track in high school at K.U., at K.U. stadium.
3
Sumner High School would go there, but it was a
4
track session, it was mixture with the race, just
5
school.
6
sent their track team to K.U. for the relay on
7
Friday and Saturday and I was, while I was there I
8
was appointed to work on the PE department,
9
physical fitness department at the, K.U. wanted
10
one of the members of the school to help provide
11
officials so I was official for the high jump,
12
triple jump, discus throw, and javelin, boys and
13
girls.
14
that and I had many students to do what I wanted
15
them to do.
16
High schools across the state of Kansas
Fascinating, and I had a great time doing
And they gave me a, when I retired they gave
17
me a present here, this place, they gave me a cap,
18
one of the things you wear, and shirt and a
19
jacket; they didn't give me the jacket, I bought
20
it, and so I was a very proud person to be an
21
official (indiscernible 18:03:24).
22
I don't care where I traveled in Lawrence, on
23
both sides of the city very segregated.
The most
24
integrated section in Lawrence was North Lawrence,
25
mainly because they were divided but they all
�21
1
lived in the same damn place, and I had many, many
2
of the Ku Klux Klan to chase me down the main
3
street, but I had a car at that time, and -- but
4
the white folks protected me.
5
I wouldn't be here if it had not been for
6
them, those students, and the students and God
7
protected me, I wouldn't be, because at 10th and
8
Alabama they take the big bomb and threw it at my
9
house.
It exploded before it arrived and all the
10
white folks came down, and gave me guns.
11
want no gun.
12
(18:04:19)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
I didn't
You had started describing some
14
of the forms of segregation and discrimination in
15
Lawrence besides the neighborhoods but also you
16
mentioned in the movie theater you had to sit in a
17
separate section.
18
19
20
DR. MILAN:
Well, you couldn't buy a house
anyplace.
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, tell me a little bit about
21
the different kinds of discrimination, including
22
in housing.
23
DR. MILAN:
You had to -- oh, there was a
24
limited section in East Lawrence.
You ever hear
25
of the New York School, elementary school?
�22
1
MR. ARNOLD:
2
DR. MILAN:
Uh-huh, yes.
That was where the first grades
3
go, up to sixth grade, and the only place there
4
was a change in education was when they got to
5
junior high and they ultimately, they had but one
6
high school and one junior high and they all went
7
together, and I taught at the junior high and the
8
high school.
9
Now, housing was limited along New York City
10
[Street] was a population in Lawrence, in East
11
Lawrence, a limited section along Alabama, because
12
I also (18:05:38) studied at a house in Alabama.
13
On Mississippi the fraternity houses were across
14
from the stadium.
15
across from the entrance on Mississippi Street and
16
the Alphas was down the street and across the
17
street on 11th and Alabama, I think that's the
18
main street, at least to the -- Mississippi
19
Street, Mississippi leads to the stadium, up to
20
K.U. entrance, was a black family that, on, right
21
on the corner there and lived right next door to
22
the Alpha house, and the other section that was
23
limited, there were no black family in the
24
Hillcrest section of the town, there were no black
25
family in a certain section in south Lawrence,
The Kappa house was about, just
�23
1
because they used to have farms out there.
2
were some farms in them areas where it was
3
Lawrence, but they were not mixed, they were
4
limited.
5
There
So Lawrence was very segregated housing and
6
employment.
Now, you could not go downtown to
7
Lawrence and go to any of those places to eat,
8
except some places had a special section for black
9
people to sit to eat in their place.
You could
10
not just go in and you sit down.
You couldn't got
11
in and go to the (18:07:20 indiscernible).
12
had to sit in a certain section.
13
deny the white folks to sit in there, because
14
they'd sit in that section because their section
15
was full, and we couldn't ask them to leave.
16
were asked to leave from this show.
Now, that didn't
17
So it was a very segregated city.
18
(18:07:50)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
21
You
We
How would you compare Lawrence
to the city you spent some time in in Alabama?
DR. MILAN:
Alabama, I didn't spend time
22
(17:08 indiscernible), I (indiscernible) location.
23
It was very segregated in the south.
24
(18:08:07)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Was Lawrence as bad as the south
�24
1
or not as bad as the south, or how would you
2
compare?
3
4
DR. MILAN:
It was as bad because only, you
could only live certain places.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
DR. MILAN:
Right.
You could only go certain places.
7
K.U. to an extent wasn't as integrated but they
8
couldn't segregate the stadium, those who tried,
9
we got rid of that, because I served as the
10
assistant superintendent for the city Recreation
11
Department so I didn't have recreation activities
12
just for the black students, I had them for all
13
students, and that's why my organization at
14
Baker's still going strong today.
15
about it in just a minute.
16
I'll tell you
But so the city was segregated.
It had
17
certain limitations.
The housing law that was
18
being discussed in Topeka was not thoroughly
19
enforced because the persons who were selling
20
housing didn't just go in for anything, they were
21
very selective of who they would offer.
22
And I was one of those selected persons
23
because when I was living in North Lawrence in a
24
segregated community they said, well, we got some
25
land on Fifth Street over in Lawrence, West
�25
1
Lawrence, and we would like to build a house for
2
you and your wife, and I had two kids, and said,
3
well, that's fine, and they built a house at 1211
4
West Fifth Street.
5
white population.
It was well welcomed by the
6
Now, who they were, but -- I don't know who
7
they were that threw that stuff at my house, and
8
when I moved to 10th and Alabama they did the same
9
thing, because I was the only black resident on
10
10th and Alabama, 10th and Alabama.
11
go down Alabama that big white house is still
12
there because couple, not a couple weeks, about
13
three weeks ago my daughter was in town from
14
California and she was born in that house and she
15
went by and looked at the house from a history
16
standpoint.
17
It's still there.
If you ever
It's still there.
But what really protected me were the white
18
kids I taught.
19
me.
I thought they really protected
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
DR. MILAN:
Very good.
Because had they, if they had not
22
I'd have been gone, and God protected me.
23
treat them.
24
25
How you
I would go to -- there was a grocery store
right on the corner of Ninth and Massachusetts --
�26
1
not a grocery store, a drug store.
2
name of that drug store?
3
section in there.
4
(18:11:05)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
7
What's the
It had a restaurant
Round Corner Drug Store, was
that it?
DR. MILAN:
It sat on the corner of the west
8
side of I think Ninth and Massachusetts.
9
know if it's still there or not, but it was, it
10
had a place where you could go in and buy your
11
drink, pop and so forth, and hamburger.
12
have an extensive cooking place but you could get
13
a sandwich and so forth and I could go there and I
14
knew who the people were serving because they knew
15
me from my teaching, but it didn't mean that I
16
could go anywhere in a store.
17
special place they'd provided.
18
(18:11:46)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
I don't
Didn't
I could go to a
Tell me a little bit more about
20
your experience trying to find, trying to move to
21
different neighborhoods.
22
some stories that the real estate agents would not
23
show you all the place --
And I know there were
24
DR. MILAN:
They never did, they never --
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Tell me about some of your
�27
1
experiences with the real estate agents and some
2
of the experiences that other black families had
3
trying to find housing and how the real estate
4
agents would try to steer you away from certain
5
neighborhoods towards others.
6
DR. MILAN:
Well, mainly because the
7
population was located that way.
The black
8
population was back over here and the white
9
population was everyplace else, so it was a very
10
interesting person who wanted to provide you a
11
house.
12
neighborhood, they built houses in the black
13
neighborhood.
14
They didn't build houses outside the black
One of the most concentrated area was off of
15
the main street there, off of the highway, south
16
-- north, near north of the stadium.
17
Alabama, where I -- on Maine Street, where, I
18
forget what numbers, going to college, before I
19
lived in a fraternity house.
20
where that is?
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
DR. MILAN:
Now, on
824 Maine.
You know
Roughly, yes.
Right in the middle of the block.
23
There were two black folks in that neighborhood.
24
Okay?
25
didn't just take you anyplace.
And those who were selling real estate
�28
1
There was vacant land where a person had
2
given up the farming and had become a place for
3
building and they could not build a house just
4
anywhere, even the real estate they were selling,
5
one person in the real estate, can't think of his
6
name right now, because, see, my brother and my
7
(18:13:56 indiscernible) in Kansas City was in the
8
real estate business in Kansas, the same thing,
9
segregated stuff, so they knew how to look at
10
that, but I was lucky that they finally found this
11
land.
12
neighborhood, just a vacant piece of land next to
13
a white neighborhood and black neighborhood, over
14
that way.
15
He said he knew it was not in a white
The other thing was that they would have a
16
parade, I got some of that stuff, in
17
Massachusetts, come down Massachusetts and you
18
would not find an integrated group, you'd find
19
black group playing their instruments going down
20
our neighborhood.
21
And back to the basketball games, they set us
22
in a section that wasn't segregated, because I had
23
white and black students that knew each other,
24
some didn't know each other, but that -- so it
25
was, Lawrence at that time was not a free city,
�29
1
black folks, Mexican.
2
Now, the Mexican, they caught more problem
3
than we did because some of them couldn't speak
4
the English language but in the public school
5
system they went to the white school system, they
6
didn't go to the black school system, only black
7
folks went to public school system and when they
8
got to the high school, that's when they began to
9
integrate the school system, junior high and high
10
school.
11
(18:15:44)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
So did Brown vs. the Board of
13
Education, when that passed in 1954 did that
14
affect the Lawrence schools?
15
DR. MILAN:
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Can you describe that?
That was
17
about the same time you started teaching, so how
18
did that affect the schools?
19
DR. MILAN:
Because they were segregated and
20
they didn't just open up, they improved the
21
quality of the brown school -- black schools and
22
as they built new schools there were no black
23
neighborhoods, though they were next door.
24
example, where I built my house on Pinckney
25
Elementary School is just east of it, 1211 West
For
�30
1
Fifth Street.
Fifth Street was a street east
2
of -- what's that main street, main highway going
3
through Lawrence?
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
DR. MILAN:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
DR. MILAN:
Sixth Street.
Sixth Street.
Sixth Street, yes.
Well, see, north, Fifth Street's
8
just north of that, and I can't think of the name
9
of the streets right now but I know that the black
10
neighborhood, that went from my house west for
11
three or four blocks and north of that were some
12
that had farmland (18:17:10 indiscernible) that --
13
and the other section -- and there were none near
14
Hillcrest Elementary School, except on Maine
15
Street.
What was the address on Maine?
16
MR. HENNING:
17
DR. MILAN:
18
824?
824 Maine.
How you know that,
man?
19
THE SPEAKER:
20
DR. MILAN:
I'm taking notes, sir.
That's right, 824 Maine.
After
21
you leave there on the other side of that house
22
that they used to live was white families, on the
23
corner, older neighborhood, across the street.
24
How he got that house I don't know because when I
25
entered K.U. I stayed as a rent student in that
�31
1
house and walked to campus every day.
2
There were not just anyplace you could go.
3
(18:18:09)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
DR. MILAN:
Right.
So if you --
What helped me was when I was
6
teaching in the white public school system I
7
became a population to help move out of the
8
neighborhood, not our neighbor but where there was
9
another facility.
It was very difficult, and real
10
estate agents were very careful of where they
11
found vacant housing for black people.
12
(18:18:41)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
So if you were a black family
14
moving to Lawrence or a black student coming to
15
Lawrence to go to K.U. the real estate agents
16
would only steer you to certain neighborhoods and
17
--
18
19
DR. MILAN:
Yes, because there was not homes
that provide housing for K.U.
20
(Announcement on the loud speaker;
21
discussion off the record.)
22
DR. MILAN:
23
several days a week.
24
25
And once every week that happens,
But what, the real estate agents knew the
segregated area, where to look for vacant land,
�32
1
vacant houses, and apartment buildings was not
2
open until after the passage of the Fair Housing
3
Ordinance, and we were very interested in the
4
preparing of that.
5
I had some friends in Topeka that I would go
6
over and visit and we would talk about why it's
7
important.
8
Constitution, and what does it say?
9
are citizens so we should be enabled to access
10
whatever we want to do not because of our race,
11
but that white population, let me tell you, buddy,
12
it was very strong, very segregated, and I was
13
exceptional.
14
I said, oh, so you can take the
Citizen.
We
That's why I got that first black professor
15
at Baker University.
16
end but -- what's the name of the place?
17
building by the green, I can't think of the name
18
now, but a black family owned it.
19
restaurant and a bar and a pool table, black kids
20
could go down there and play pool and drink beer
21
and it's a tavern, it's a black tavern.
22
trying to think, I can't think of the name of it
23
now, but I know where it was.
24
25
I was given the end, not the
It's a
It had a little
I'm
And one of the professors from Baker
University knew the owner of that black facility
�33
1
and he came once in awhile and I was giving a
2
speech to parents about recreational activities in
3
Lawrence.
4
students didn't belong to white teams but they
5
played each other, black teams, and so I was
6
giving a speech there and said that someday that
7
might happen but right now we have a segregated
8
facility, because I was assistant director of the
9
city Recreation Department, but he hired me
It was very segregated because black
10
because I was an elementary teacher and he hired
11
me for that for the summertime to improve the
12
recreational activities for the black students in
13
Lawrence, black kids, and I did that.
14
And as we went along the Fair Housing
15
Ordinance was introducing a whole recreational
16
experience, because real estate agents had to open
17
up the door and parents who wanted a house, and
18
they looked at some neighborhood, like in
19
Lawrence, I never will forget the family that
20
moved up the street on the corner on Ninth &
21
Maine, because the real estate agent said, well,
22
the house is there, but at the time it was a
23
segregated neighborhood but the real estate agent,
24
who was a white agent serving the black community,
25
provided a house for this family and they moved
�34
1
in.
They caught hell for awhile but it gradually
2
changed as they lived and got to know the family a
3
little better.
4
So integrating neighborhoods were very rigid
5
because they were very stubborn and they were not
6
going to school together.
7
after they changed the school system to integrated
8
systems.
9
(18:23:25)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
It didn't happen till
Let's talk a little bit, since
11
you brought up the Fair Housing Ordinance, really
12
the work towards bringing that about started much
13
earlier with organizations like the League for the
14
Promotion of Democracy, which I know you were the
15
president of.
16
organization in the 1950s and what other
17
organizations --
18
How did you get involved with that
DR. MILAN:
Well, the reason, because of the
19
students would talk about me to their parents, how
20
well I treat them, and when I treat the white
21
students, when I went to their schools they told
22
their parents about me as well.
23
treat a person.
24
25
It's how you
One of the most fascinating experience, not
just a game, how they grew when they integrated
�35
1
system and before that how the boys in the same
2
school, white, came together on my square dancing.
3
I taught all types of dance, all types of
4
activities, dancing, and that was the most
5
valuable social adjustment activity.
6
I coached white girls, elementary and junior
7
high basketball teams where I was at Central High
8
School, Junior High, and I coached girl's
9
recreation in the summertime, boys and girls, but
10
my most fascinating integrated activity was track,
11
taking them to the track meet, because I ran the
12
track meet, on a black team, not a white team.
13
ran the quarter mile and I had a good time.
14
I
So one of my impact on the city, not only was
15
I a prime character to get rid of, because I had
16
many efforts to try to do that, God blessed me and
17
so some of the parents and the kids really blessed
18
me, white parents and white children really
19
blessed me and I give thanks for them, but the
20
problem was Lawrence was not in favor from a major
21
standpoint the fair housing law, because they had
22
made too much money selling white folks white
23
stuff, but as the land began to move from a farm
24
area, because there was a lot of farms in that
25
area and the land became popular for building and
�36
1
what have you, and when they were building they
2
were very selective who moved in them homes.
3
was one of them, and they didn't appreciate me in
4
that neighborhood because I was black and they
5
said all kinds of stuff, and it was, it was
6
interesting, so I was very popular.
7
(18:26:38)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
DR. MILAN:
I
So meaning -In improving the knowledge and
10
the purpose of the document of this country, the
11
14th Amendment.
12
specifically identify black people but they said
13
all persons will become citizen of this country,
14
and that's why on the East Coast a very rigid
15
population from the white population rejected
16
that, but it ultimately passed because it said we
17
must do this, because they had a black military.
18
The 14th Amendment did not
My father was a member of the Army when he
19
was growing up in World War I and other relatives.
20
The military was very segregated.
21
the military in the '40s, in '46, it was
22
semi-integrated.
23
the years checked by.
24
difficult laws to get passed, the fair housing law
25
of Kansas, because there's a -- what was the name
When I got in
It increased its integration as
That was one of the most
�37
1
of that white organization that was really
2
opposing -- what you need to see?
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
DR. MILAN:
5
MR. HENNING:
6
7
He's taking some notes.
Huh?
Oh, I'm watching you and taking
notes.
DR. MILAN:
Well, if you looked at all them
8
white books, that's what I developed when I was
9
teaching.
10
But Kansas even today does not a hundred
11
percent support the Kansas fair housing law.
12
There were many laws that were passed after World
13
War II to improve the flexibility of black people.
14
Now, Hispanics got even worse than that because
15
they had to live in a very segregated area where
16
they spoke the same language, Spanish language.
17
On New York City, state [Street], what was
18
it, McAlister Elementary School, south -- west --
19
east, yes, east of McAlister Elementary School,
20
one of my schools, was a white school that
21
eventually they integrated it but behind that
22
school were a lot of Mexican families, so they had
23
a very limited, not just for us but for them.
24
However, sometimes they could go to the show and
25
not have to sit in the black section, they could
�38
1
sit anywhere.
Black people could not do that.
2
The main theater down there on Massachusetts, you
3
know where it is?
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Uh-huh.
5
DR. MILAN:
All right.
6
ticket but you couldn't just sit anywhere.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
DR. MILAN:
9
Well, you could buy a
make you get up.
Right.
If you would sit there they'd
If you wouldn't get up they'd
10
put you out, so I didn't like to go, but I went,
11
and after I got married my wife would go, but it
12
was a very segregated city and one thing that we
13
had to really improve on was racial relations.
14
(18:30:30)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, tell me about some of the
16
organizations that tried to do that, like the one
17
you were involved in was the League for Promotion
18
of Democracy.
19
That was an integrated group with both white
20
people and black people working together to bring
21
about change.
22
What do you remember about that?
Do you think that was a good group?
DR. MILAN:
PTA, Parent-Teachers Association.
23
Parent-Teachers Association moved, began to move
24
together.
25
they didn't walk the streets and beat but they
That was one of the first powerful --
�39
1
improved the quality of the community by improving
2
the quality of opportunity for all persons.
3
And then the unions were very good at that
4
itself, okay?
And now the teaching, teachers'
5
association were very interested in improving the
6
quality because now Lawrence was beginning to grow
7
and the area for the location of black people were
8
very limited, where they could build a house or
9
buy a house.
Many people recruited from Kansas
10
City to Topeka and Lawrence, while those cities
11
themselves were segregated.
12
anyplace you want to in Topeka, until after the
13
passage of the fair housing law and the
14
enforcement of it.
15
You couldn't just go
Now, sometimes the enforcement was not fair,
16
it just make sure that you knew damn well you
17
don't belong here, goodbye, get out of here.
18
lot of stuff took place, lot of arguments and
19
fights, but not me.
20
I had the kids who supported me because I was
21
their teacher, not their parents but their kids.
22
(18:32:33)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
A
I chose not to do it because
Talk to me about the involvement
24
of the Lawrence NAACP, which you were a member of
25
and the president of.
How did they try to promote
�40
1
2
fair housing?
DR. MILAN:
Fourteenth Amendment.
We used
3
that as the basis for our organization.
4
formulated for that.
5
I was responsible for bringing membership there,
6
because we have to be able to use two things:
7
God, because the churches were very segregated.
8
9
NAACP was
It was brought to Lawrence,
I grew up in Armourdale.
You couldn't go to
no white folks' church, even though it was
10
Catholic.
11
And so it brought about a change of putting in the
12
emphasis and the gospel in the Bible, love your
13
neighbor as yourself irrespective of his sex or
14
race.
15
you violate the Christian regulation.
16
I wasn't Catholic, I was a Baptist.
If you love God and you don't do that, then
I used that as a thesis for creating a
17
special organization at Baker University.
18
ever hear about it?
19
(18:34)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
DR. MILAN:
No.
You
Tell us about it.
At Baker University it was very
22
segregated, except when they brought me there I
23
could go where black kids couldn't go.
24
no, this ain't gonna happen.
25
this.
I said,
We need to change
We're all children of God irrespective of
�41
1
your race and the Bible said love your neighbor,
2
not love your race neighbor, but love your
3
neighbor as yourself, and as a result I created an
4
organization, was because when I met with the
5
black students in my classroom -- I taught not
6
just black students, I taught all the students in
7
anthropology and in the physical education
8
classes.
9
I taught in P.E. Department at Baker and
10
anthropology and I taught the subject for
11
placement of teachers, not black teachers but
12
teachers.
13
black students in the Education Department at that
14
time.
15
I didn't have -- there was not too many
But what happened, I was received and I would
16
get the kids to get -- and my thesis was this:
17
said, your women are God's angels.
18
God's angels, irrespective of their race, so
19
therefore, men, you are interested in human being,
20
opposite sex, not because of their race but you
21
should be interested in relating to them and
22
becoming friends to them irrespective of your
23
race.
24
25
I
Women are
And all of you women, you have to look at
your relationship with God, not with the physical
�42
1
being.
2
what they mean:
3
opportunity and employment, and that's what had a
4
real (18:36:14 indiscernible), because employees
5
will hire you and put you in a special section, a
6
black section.
7
The Constitution don't say that but that's
All fair housing, all equal
I worked at Armour's packing house when I was
8
in high school and I end up working in a black
9
section in the packing house, and after fair
10
housing law and the employment law was passed and
11
the union changed.
12
white and black.
13
of the black section, as the state legislatures
14
and other things began entry because of that.
15
The unions were basically
You may be going to see the CIO
In the Army it was segregated.
I was in a
16
black partition in the infantry and the base
17
commander, when he saw me in Hawaii I was assigned
18
as a military policeman.
19
from a black section of where I lived, with the
20
black Army section, in that building, not an
21
integrated housing in the military, it was
22
segregated, but I was selected not to be a police
23
officer for just the black people but a police
24
officer to govern the performance of all soldiers.
25
That was interesting.
They didn't have any
Interesting.
�43
1
(18:38:09)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Let's go back to when you were
3
the member of the Lawrence NAACP in I think 1964
4
and 1965, the Lawrence NAACP.
5
DR. MILAN:
Well, I used the church as a
6
basis for expanding the teaching of God.
7
belonged to a black Baptist Church.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
DR. MILAN:
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
DR. MILAN:
I
In Lawrence?
No.
I went to it.
Okay.
But I was, I had -- before I went
12
to Lawrence I was a member of the Episcopal
13
Church.
14
Kansas City, Kansas, on Third and Stewart, but the
15
population died, NAA -- only Alversa and me and
16
one other person, a member of the Trinity
17
Episcopal -- not Trinity, (18:39:16 indiscernible)
18
I'll get the name of it; black Episcopal Church in
19
Kansas City, Kansas, and St. Paul were responsible
20
for the district, for the bishop, sending him over
21
to continue that, because it was a black priest
22
that taught it, not a regular white priest, and
23
when he left, went someplace else, and the church
24
had to have a Episcopal priest, then one of the
25
priests from St. Paul's Episcopal Church, which
There was a black Episcopal Church in
�44
1
is, it's on, not 18th Street, 10th, it's not 10th
2
and Parallel.
3
about one block north or two blocks north of
4
Minnesota, and he would come over, and his church
5
was growing.
6
called the St. Paul, or Saint -- I still go to
7
that church -- St. Matthew's Episcopal Church out
8
on Saint -- not Saint Patrick.
9
it.
10
It was off of 10th Street, right
He was assigned to what is now
I can't think of
I go there every Sunday, but when we started
11
there were 12 people.
12
black woman that came with us, and he had a few
13
friends that (18:41:04 indiscernible).
14
Episcopal -- not St. Paul's but -- I go every
15
Sunday.
16
think so.
17
you go 10th Highway and go west, and so I still go
18
there.
19
He and myself and that one
St. Paul's
Is it St. Matthew's Episcopal Church?
I
It's off of 10th and, 10th Street if
But bishop at that time appointed me as the
20
population grew as an ordained deacon in the
21
Episcopal Church and I served to assist in the
22
development of the church service, as well as
23
performing it.
24
And every Sunday after church I took
25
communion to the sick and shut in, whole lot of
�45
1
white folks.
2
theme songs when I walked in their home or the
3
hospital who were sick, I would walk in and after
4
I introduced myself, can Dr. Milan come in and
5
take me to the sick person and I'd come into
6
church, and even though they were sick we would
7
gather around a chair in a room and I'd open up my
8
song, I had my special song.
9
There ain't too many.
And one of my
The first song I would sing: (singing)
"Lean
10
on me when you're not strong.
11
friend; I'll help you carry on.
12
long till you're gonna need somebody to lean on."
13
I'll be your
Oh, it won't be
And we all do, and that one person is God.
14
Lean on God.
And once again, I'd say, if you
15
don't know where to go, go to chapter 30:32 and
16
listen and read the subject of God, about leaning
17
on each other.
18
you should become a friend of your neighbor.
19
was my thesis.
Become a friend of God, and then
That
20
But anyway, I served for 20, 25, 22, 25
21
years, when bishop said, "Dr. Milan, it's time for
22
you to retire."
23
bishop.
24
25
So I did, because he was the
Because I traveled a lot, taught Sunday
school, took kids camping.
There were no black
�46
1
families in that St. Paul's Episcopal Church --
2
St. Matthew rather, but my wife and I and this one
3
lady that came with us from Trinity, and she died.
4
That's what happened to my population at Trinity:
5
They died.
6
me the congregation got together, after the Motor
7
Vehicle Department took my driver's license, and
8
developed a system to make sure I had a way to get
9
to church.
And so the day when the bishop retired
It's too far to walk from here out 10
10
Highway down the way to St. Matthew's Episcopal
11
Church.
12
(18:44:34)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
That's wonderful.
Let me take
14
you back to 1967, when Lawrence passed the Fair
15
Housing Ordinance, and there was a group called
16
the Fair Housing Coordinating Committee and many
17
organizations were part of that, the NAACP, the
18
League of Women Voters, --
19
DR. MILAN:
20
MR. ARNOLD:
I was a part of that.
-- but also the churches were
21
very much involved.
22
churches, both white and black, helped to fight
23
for equality.
24
25
DR. MILAN:
Tell me about how the
Because I was a black member that
taught their kids.
I'd even come to their church
�47
1
once in awhile. I knew all the black preachers and
2
I used that for the same way I used 30:32.
3
How can you teach love your neighbor as
4
yourself, how can you teach and you don't know how
5
to sit down and to help a child to overcome
6
looking at a white boy and a white girl and they
7
look at you and you look at them and separate each
8
other?
9
second place they began to integrate into
Because generally the school was the
10
relationship, racial relation, not the military,
11
but it did after World War II, they say, oh, we
12
gotta, we gotta change this a little bit.
13
did.
14
They
And I was a football player for the team in
15
Hawaii and made another mistake.
I ended being
16
chosen as a second team quarterback in a
17
professional football team and played first team
18
quarterback, right halfback, first string, right
19
safety, (18:46:07 indiscernible), and I didn't
20
weigh but 150 pounds, but I knew how to hide the
21
football.
22
ball and go for that pass.
23
with -- they don't know how to take and hide that
24
football when you get it from the quarterback and
25
make a turn and do something (18:46:27
They don't do that today.
They get the
Don't do a damn thing
�48
1
indiscernible), and them going that way and you go
2
that way, and they don't know where in the hell
3
the ball is.
4
But that was the purpose, not just to pass a
5
law for a law standpoint, but using the Bible as a
6
thesis for passing a law to improve the
7
relationship between human beings.
8
from a Christian standpoint.
9
it speaks from the Bible.
10
(18:47:02)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
It wasn't sent
I said it does, but
Read it.
Do you remember any of the other
12
people who were involved in that fair housing
13
coordinating committee?
14
Dulin from the Plymouth Congregational Church, who
15
was in charge of that organization?
16
17
DR. MILAN:
(18:47:16)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
21
Many preachers of the
church were in charge of the organization of that.
18
20
Yes.
Do you remember Reverend
The churches were very much
involved in that effort?
DR. MILAN:
Uh-huh.
They were.
22
know why?
23
just from a black standpoint.
24
relationship of God is all (18:47:37
25
indiscernible).
Why?
You
They kept reading Christian emphasis,
The racial
You can't look at that.
He ain't
�49
1
a black God.
2
He's not a Mexican God.
So that was my thesis and to improve the
3
quality of -- I don't remember all their names.
4
There were a lot of them.
5
(18:47:54)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
DR. MILAN:
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
10
11
Right.
Right.
Many years ago?
Yes.
There were many, there were many
-DR. MILAN:
The reason I was selected,
because I taught their kids.
12
(18:48:04)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
So you had a very good
14
reputation so people, did people look to you as a
15
leader of the black community because of your
16
strong reputation?
17
DR. MILAN:
In part, but I was a leader of
18
the community period.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
DR. MILAN:
Very good.
I was serving, the representative
21
of us as separate people, and square dancing was
22
one of my interracial activities, as well as
23
basketball, but not as famous, but -- and then we
24
had relay teams.
25
sport, not a race, et cetera.
Relay teams made a runner, a
�50
1
So I was emphasizing, that's the reason I
2
became very active, was that organization, but I
3
was also a very popular target --
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
DR. MILAN:
Right.
-- from the black community that
6
didn't want to do that and the white community
7
didn't want it.
8
he really saved me, because there were folks,
9
black folks as well as white folks who did not
10
God saved me.
I'm not kidding,
want to come together.
11
(18:49:15)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
So even some African-American
13
people were opposed to some of the things you were
14
trying to do?
15
DR. MILAN:
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
DR. MILAN:
Yes.
And why was that?
Because they feel like it's not
18
providing them an opportunity.
They could not go
19
anywhere and get a job; they had to get a special
20
job.
21
They could not go anywhere in the school system.
They could not go anywhere and get a house.
22
(Knocking; off the record.
23
taken.)
24
(18:51:32)
25
DR. MILAN:
A recess was
Well, and see, as a teacher I
�51
1
didn't teach about race, I taught as a child of
2
God.
3
And I didn't finish my story with you about
4
Baker.
When I became a professor at Baker I was
5
the first black professor in the history of that
6
school.
7
Kansas?
Are you familiar with Baldwin City,
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
DR. MILAN:
A little bit.
I've visited.
It is not a populated system of
10
racial mixture, Mexican or black, mostly a white
11
population, agriculture, you're basically a
12
farmer, and the school system was 290,000
13
(18:52:13) white.
14
in that town.
15
were living...farming nearby, but not that many.
16
My point is only white students
There were a few Mexicans but they
Most of them were all white, and so when they
17
created an organization on campus there was no
18
black fraternity or sorority, none, but there was
19
what we call like a, there were members from the
20
black fraternity and white fraternity and white
21
sorority.
22
could not (18:52:56 indiscernible) open a
23
organization just for black people, so -- have you
24
ever heard that song God's Angels?
25
that song?
I was a member of Kappa Alpha Psi but I
Have you heard
You don't sing that song?
�52
1
2
3
MR. ARNOLD:
No, I don't think I've heard
that.
DR. MILAN:
How could you (18:53:12
4
indiscernible) with a woman you don't sing that
5
song?
6
That's what I did.
I used the thesis, 30:32.
7
I said:
You are all children of God, male or
8
female, but you are special creators.
9
have babies.
Men don't
God created you for the purpose of
10
reproducing the population, another human being.
11
That's why you are a special creator of God, and
12
so I say you are one of God's angels, and I taught
13
them that song.
14
(Singing) Oh, angel, earth angel, will you be
15
mine?
My darling dear, I will love you all the
16
time.
Yes, I will love you all the time.
17
angel, an angel of God.
18
Just an
Love your neighbor as yourself, not the black
19
or the white, and the young men from South Africa
20
said, Dr. Milan, we use this term, maybe not
21
knowing about that Bible reference, but that's
22
what we say:
23
we use a special language, Mungano.
Love your neighbor as yourself, but
24
And with a professor at Baker University, our
25
neighbors there, she sat right there in that chair
�53
1
-- no, that chair right there.
2
she produced a book.
3
someone took a lot of special stuff out of my book
4
that they bought, and the title of it is The
5
History of Mungano.
6
taken out by (18:55:17 indiscernible) because
7
(indiscernible) population again.
8
(18:55:28)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
I sat there, and
I let them look at it and
Many of my page have been
Here you go.
Well, Dr. Milan, let me take you
10
back again to the Fair Housing Ordinance in
11
Lawrence and in January, 1967, the fair housing
12
coordinating committee went to the Lawrence Human
13
Relations Commission and you were one of the
14
people who spoke --
15
DR. MILAN:
16
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
-- and made the case for why
17
Lawrence needed a fair housing ordinance.
18
remember --
19
DR. MILAN:
20
I use it today.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
DR. MILAN:
Do you
Yes, and I used this the same as
We are all creatures of God.
Right.
And I think you --
We are all creations of God and
23
God is not separating us, it's that the human
24
being are developing cultural ways of saying that
25
we can better off this way and maybe we'll think
�54
1
about God later on.
2
black and white churches, not God's churches.
3
Even the churches develop
You could not go to a white church and find a
4
black person in that church, yet they talking
5
about Christianity.
6
Christianity, you're not talking about God's
7
Christianity.
8
tell you.
9
I say you talking about white
Oh, I caught my hell, I'm gonna
The people did everything they can to try to
10
get rid of me, but God protected me.
11
their guns shooting and I had a lot of things.
12
(18:56:42)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
They had
Well, so the Human
14
Relations Commission was very convinced by the
15
case that was made and so they took the ordinance
16
to the City Commission and you testified before
17
the City Commission.
18
DR. MILAN:
19
20
21
22
Do you remember that?
I testified before them, yes,
sir, the same thing I'm talking to you about.
MR. ARNOLD:
Did they seem very positive to
your message?
DR. MILAN:
Some did, some didn't, because
23
this country was not built on people but they
24
think white folks were the reason this country
25
came into being and they don't think that other
�55
1
folks have a right to come and do that.
That's
2
why I'm going to say to you, my client works with
3
me and I work with her, Hillary Clinton, in
4
addressing some of these problems that people were
5
facing.
6
I said, how can you go to church on Sunday
7
and preach about this and this and this and yet
8
you cannot come out of the church and preach about
9
the gospel of God, of all people, because you are
10
a creator of God?
11
then you are sure enough a devil.
12
13
And that's my thesis.
It's still my thesis,
even here.
14
(18:57:59)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
If you don't understand that,
Well, the City Commission passed
the ordinance four to one in favor and --
17
DR. MILAN:
And they didn't pass it simply
18
because it's the law, because of the thesis of my
19
--
20
MR. ARNOLD:
So they were convinced by people
21
like you that it was the right thing to do in the
22
eyes of God and of equality?
23
DR. MILAN:
Exactly.
You cannot improve the
24
relationship of people based upon physical
25
existence, you gotta do that on the improvement of
�56
1
spiritual relationship and who are you related to.
2
Now, some people would say, yes, I'd say you
3
must be related to Satan.
4
hell.
5
are people today who still believe in Satan.
6
You give other people
Satan came along to do just that, and there
And my thesis said no, irrespective of your
7
physical condition.
Mungano does not look at the
8
physical condition, they look at all of God's
9
angels, and the boys would come on and they'd say,
10
"yes, they're real angels, baby."
11
ha.
12
But -- and that's my thesis.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
DR. MILAN:
Ha, ha, ha, ha,
Right.
And what helped that law pass was
15
the emphasis of a Christian education about the
16
relationship of church and God's people, and when
17
you read the Bible, if you don't pay attention to
18
30:32, then you ain't a Christian, you're related
19
to the man downstairs called the devil.
20
(18:59:34)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now, after the law was
22
passed do you think the real estate agents then
23
changed their practices?
24
better?
25
DR. MILAN:
Do you think things got
Not a hundred percent, no.
White
�57
1
real estate agents continued to go to primary
2
system of the white population, and when a black
3
person came along they tried, they'd try to find a
4
black location.
5
speaking experience, because putting a black
6
person in a white neighborhood, they caught hell,
7
then and now.
8
(19:00:12)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
I'm not speaking theory, I'm
Yes.
But there were many white
10
families that supported having African-Americans
11
move into their neighborhoods.
12
13
DR. MILAN:
I know --
After they understand their
religion.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
DR. MILAN:
Okay.
If the preacher didn't help them,
16
then they didn't cause them to change their
17
attitude.
18
(19:00:27)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
21
22
So the churches played an
important role in changing attitudes?
DR. MILAN:
They, they -- important role in
changing attitude.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
DR. MILAN:
25
(19:00:37)
Okay.
Some did then and some did now.
�58
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Now I want to talk to you about
2
the swimming pool in Lawrence.
3
involved --
4
DR. MILAN:
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
swimming pool.
Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho.
DR. MILAN:
8
MR. ARNOLD:
10
-- in efforts to integrate the
Were you involved in the 1960 --
7
9
I know you were
You damn right I was.
What was your involvement in the
protest in 1960 against the Jayhawk Plunge?
DR. MILAN:
We couldn't go there.
We could
11
not go to that pool when they opened up that pool,
12
just the same as we cannot go and sit anywhere in
13
a show.
14
long time to change that, after the swimming pool
15
was changed, letting them come and swim anywhere.
16
We could not go and swim anywhere.
17
special day they set aside for black people to
18
come, which we said, no, no, no, no, no, we are
19
not going to go just on a black day, we are going
20
to go when you open up the pool.
21
We had special seats.
It took them a
We'd go on
See, because I was one of the city Recreation
22
Department.
I said, "We don't just have things
23
for black students or white students, we have a
24
recreational activity for all students that come
25
to the community building down on the main
�59
1
street."
2
downtown?
You know the community building
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
DR. MILAN:
Uh-huh.
Well, we would go there and we'd
5
all play together.
6
together.
7
neighborhood.
8
school together, and when we come to school
9
together we got to look at our neighbor.
10
11
No, we must learn how to live
Now, we're not in the same
Now we're beginning to come to
Have you ever had anybody throw bombs at your
house?
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
DR. MILAN:
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
DR. MILAN:
16
MR. WAGNER:
17
DR. MILAN:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
DR. MILAN:
No, sir.
You haven't?
No.
You have, haven't you?
No, no, sir.
You know, it's pathetic.
It is.
It's horrible.
But my position was not just
20
recreation for black students, I was assistant
21
superintendent of the Lawrence Recreation
22
Department for all population and I didn't teach
23
based upon race, I taught based upon sexual
24
relationship, because you are God's angel and you
25
are God's angel, too, but not the kind of angel
�60
1
that she is.
She is created for the purpose of
2
taking that seed and producing another human
3
being.
4
relationship of being a human being, one of God's
5
children, and I still operate that way today.
Your job is to communicate that
6
(19:03:15)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now, in November, 1967,
8
the bond issue finally passed after it failed
9
twice to pass to --
10
DR. MILAN:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
13
You know why it failed twice?
-- raise money -- tell me why it
failed twice.
DR. MILAN:
Because the population in the
14
local population for the enforcement of the
15
opposition to what that law meant to them.
16
don't want mixed race, we don't want this, we want
17
to continue to be the boss, white folks.
18
(19:03:41)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
We
Now, when it finally
20
passed in November of 1967 I know you had a role
21
in helping to get it to pass.
22
bit about that.
23
DR. MILAN:
24
25
Tell us a little
I did, because I was reaching
them the same as I'm telling you.
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
But didn't you encourage
�61
1
some youths to go around door to door and
2
encourage people to vote yes?
3
DR. MILAN:
Yes, I did.
You know why?
Not
4
just to vote yes, that you are going to
5
communicate God's message.
6
creatures.
7
not an angel that's a man but you are a supporter
8
of God's angels.
9
in marriage?
You are one of God's
You are one of his angels.
You are
Don't the man support the family
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
DR. MILAN:
But a lot of time it's not looked
12
upon like that.
We have a special role as a human
13
being irrespective of your race.
14
same role.
15
what Matthew says.
16
hell.
17
Absolutely.
You have the
Every man has the same role of doing
If you don't you will go to
So that was my thesis to communicate that to
18
the preachers, who didn't preach that, they
19
preached about God's relationship with the white
20
church.
21
talk about it from that perspective.
22
community some of them did not.
23
didn't want you coming to their church and some of
24
them didn't want white folks coming to black
25
church, because they were accustomed to
He didn't say white church but he did not
In the
Some of them
�62
1
nonreligious relationship, but that was my thesis
2
as a teacher, as a student, as I grew up.
3
(19:05:33)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Tell me a little bit about after
5
the Fair Housing Ordinance passed in 1967 and then
6
the pool bond issue passed.
7
necessarily get better in Lawrence, in fact they
8
got worse with the violence in 1969 and 1970.
9
Tell me about some of your involvements and
10
11
Things didn't
experiences with the violent protests.
DR. MILAN:
That's why we brought the NAACP
12
to Lawrence and in Kansas and to this country.
13
That's why it growed up, because the object was
14
not to just look at your race, you were looking at
15
the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, it wasn't
16
just to protect black folk.
17
in this country must contribute to its
18
development, and that's what I use, I still use,
19
my mother, my father taught.
20
All people who live
My mother was an Indian, my father was a
21
slave on the Milan, Tennessee, in Milan,
22
Tennessee, and she was a Depue Indian, and that
23
relationship increases my theory of God's
24
relationship.
25
It's a big difference.
It was not easy.
It was passed because many
�63
1
people voted yes from a popular standpoint, not
2
for economic standpoint, not for social
3
standpoint, not for increasing the relationship of
4
American citizens.
No.
5
Have you ever been someplace and they
6
wouldn't let you eat or in or go do this because
7
you were a black citizen?
8
American citizen, you were a black citizen, and
9
those things have -- I worked at Armour's packing
10
house and they had a black section, and as it grew
11
in population it gradually, the union changed the
12
integration of employment station, except for
13
women.
14
No, you were not an
Women today are not equally treated in
15
employment.
I had a lady that was the clerk for
16
Bonner Springs school district for 20, 20 some odd
17
years and when I moved in the area she contacted
18
me, because I was a member of the NAACP, and I am
19
still a member of the NAACP.
20
NAACP as just a black organization, I said we are
21
gathering together as black people to change the
22
relationship of us in this country in all
23
spectrums of the culture of this country, and
24
that's why we have to emphasize the improvement of
25
laws that emphasize God's message.
I didn't see the
�64
1
We are all children of God.
2
your face and your color's (19:08:54
3
indiscernible) you are still a child of God, and
4
that's how I still, I rate that way.
5
that still do not rate that way, even here.
6
(19:09:07)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Just because
Got people
Were you surprised in
8
1969 when violence broke out in Lawrence?
9
that surprise you or did you --
10
DR. MILAN:
11
MR. ARNOLD:
-- think there was --
12
DR. MILAN:
I tried to prevent it.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Did
No.
Tell us about some of the things
14
you were involved in in trying to prevent some of
15
it.
16
DR. MILAN:
Through the church, ministry,
17
preachers.
I'd say, "You have a responsibility of
18
improving the relationship," and the white
19
preacher I'd say the same thing, "You have a
20
responsibility of improving God's children
21
relationship, not just because of your church,
22
because you, the church is supposed to be a member
23
of God's community.
24
and still look at it independent as a race group,
25
then you will not make a change."
If you don't recognize that
�65
1
This country, the way they treated the
2
Indians when they came over here, because the
3
Indians were in charge of everything, they didn't
4
see it that somebody was in charge, living off the
5
gift of God, and so the white man, when he came
6
here he came here for the purpose of becoming the
7
owner, leader, director, and not -- and
8
controlling who did what, and it's still that way.
9
I was telling you about the employment of a
10
young lady who was employed as a clerk in the
11
cafeteria in the school system in Bonner Springs
12
and one day she'd been very successful and her
13
evaluation by the Board of Education and the
14
school board was very, was very excellent,
15
excellent as to education and working
16
responsibility, because it's now an integrated
17
school system; all children were treated the same.
18
As a black woman she helped the white kids and the
19
black kids and et cetera.
20
And one day a young man, a white man, came,
21
was hired and he had a daughter that needed a job
22
and they fired this black woman, and she didn't
23
know what the hell to do, except she heard about
24
me as a fighter for the improvement of black
25
people and she made a (indiscernible 19:11:52) and
�66
1
came to me, and so what I did, I listened to her
2
and I says, "Okay, we're going to file a complaint
3
but before we do that we going to get some
4
information."
5
She gave me her record of history written by
6
the school education, how well she performed,
7
because Bonner Springs was then beginning to get
8
integrated, having white kids and black kids in
9
the same school and eat the same place in the
10
cafeteria, and she was treating all those kids the
11
same.
12
And so I said, "Okay, give me a copy."
So I
13
got copies of those and I prepared them and I send
14
them to the court that made the decision, and the
15
lawyer got copies of it, and I said to them, "On
16
what basis did you see to fire this black woman
17
when her performance on the job was excellent, not
18
based upon race, upon the way of working with and
19
helping all of the people who came through her
20
cafeteria and how to help them, black or white or
21
Mexican or whatever?
22
you wrote the, this information about excellent in
23
work."
24
25
And guess what?
So why do you fire her?
And
The court changed their
decision but could not get her fired, they gave
�67
1
her $35,000, and she called me up.
2
Milan, how much do I owe you?"
3
damn thing.
4
equality of American law."
5
6
She said, "Dr.
I said, "Not a
That's my job, to help you get
And even today every month she'll come by and
give me $20.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
DR. MILAN:
Wow.
She developed a stamp population,
9
a stamp office as, with her money, (19:14:07
10
indiscernible) and she'll bring me stamps, 10
11
stamps a week -- a month.
12
any money.
13
momma and my poppa taught me.
14
and he was a man who lived on, who was a slave on
15
a white man's farm and they lived a different life
16
trying to create equality of all people and
17
equality of his children, and he did that, all of
18
us, four of us, his kids.
19
along with the white (19:15:52 indiscernible).
I'm not hired.
20
(Phone ringing.
21
DR. MILAN:
22
MR. HENNING:
23
voting Democrat.
24
All right.
25
But I didn't ask for
I'm doing what my
She was an Indian
We learned how to get
Off the record.)
I'm going to vote Democrat.
Okay.
The doctor will be
Thanks so much for your call.
Talk to you soon.
DR. MILAN:
The reason I'm going to vote for
�68
1
Hillary Clinton, I don't call this guy, what's his
2
name, Donald what?
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
DR. MILAN:
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
DR. MILAN:
Donald Trump.
No, it's not.
Donald Dump.
Oh.
He preaches and he talks and he
7
do whatever he can to degrade her.
I was
8
responsible (19:15:47 indiscernible) not just
9
degrading women for sex.
10
But when I went into this young lady's
11
apartment (19:15:57 indiscernible) and got that
12
population and presented it to the Board of
13
Education they were shocked.
14
when we didn't -- we give this kind of (19:16:08
15
indiscernible) for 20 some odd years, evaluation
16
of her, why did we fire her?
17
little white girl could take her place.
18
years they tried to fire the little white girl but
19
her daddy wouldn't let them.
Why did we fire her,
Only 'cause that
After two
20
This country was established on racial
21
emphasis, because Indians were not viewed as same
22
human being as the white man when they came to
23
this country, so that's why there are white
24
population of white seniority became a part, a
25
part of American culture, and it's still a part of
�69
1
2
American culture.
(19:16:53 audio interference, indiscernible)
3
I wouldn't be living here if that had not been
4
improved, those laws had not been passed.
5
laws were passed to put into practice the practice
6
of God.
7
(19:17:12)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
The
Dr. Milan, I know you've been
working for equality for many, many years.
One of
10
the things you did in Lawrence in the 1960s is you
11
ran for the City Commission twice.
12
you failed, but talk to us a little bit about why
13
you decided to run for the City Commission.
14
did you hope to accomplish?
15
DR. MILAN:
Because I'm black.
Unfortunately
What
I was black,
16
that's why, not because of my knowledge and
17
influence.
18
that position to tell white folk what to do.
19
That's why.
20
I was black, I would run because I wanted to
21
develop the thesis of the Bible of living together
22
and helping each other and building things
23
together.
24
don't change.
25
They didn't want to see a black man in
I didn't care.
I didn't run because
I still have that same attitude.
I'm only 88 years old.
I
I ain't gonna change.
�70
1
2
I got this knee on my 88th birthday.
I learned that from my mother and my father,
3
a black man and an Indian, living together and
4
raising us differently, because there were white
5
folks and black folks, they didn't like Indians,
6
they still don't, but that thesis, they still
7
operate that way, still operate of bringing kids
8
on -- two weeks ago a young man who was a graduate
9
of Baker University and he came here and knocked
10
on my door, said, "Dr. Milan, I gotta see you.
11
read about you in Mungano and I became a member of
12
Mungano and I enjoy it and I appreciate what you
13
did with them and for us."
14
appreciate what you do for me."
15
I
I said, "Well, I
But, you know, it's not interesting, so what
16
I did then and I still do, I use the Bible as that
17
thesis to improve relationships.
18
Lawrence was very tough, very tough, but I helped
19
the kids who went out for basketball at the high
20
school and changed the attitude about it, and made
21
the team, and the same way junior high.
22
(19:19:55)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Race relation in
Now, when you first started
24
teaching in the Lawrence schools were the sports
25
teams segregated?
�71
1
DR. MILAN:
No.
They -- you (19:20:05
2
indiscernible) see a black athlete has the
3
possibility of performing.
4
that time, slowly graduation of black folk in
5
professional sports.
6
It was gradually at
I had a chance to go to a professional
7
football team and I went out (19:20:23
8
indiscernible), I was an all star, seventh
9
division in college basketball and a college team,
10
a northern school, and I was selected not because
11
I was black, because of the way I played football,
12
way I handled the ball, and increased the
13
population and success of the team.
14
look at that was he black, they looked at me as a
15
football player, and that's -- today they don't
16
have that.
17
stuff in professional football.
They didn't
They don't have very many creative
18
(19:21:09)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
I don't watch it.
Do you think K.U. sports played
20
a role in helping to improve things in Lawrence
21
with people like Wilt Chamberlain, who came to
22
play?
23
Did that help with --
DR. MILAN:
No.
My wife dealt with Wilt
24
Chamberlain, wife dealt with all them black
25
athletes that came through, because of me, and
�72
1
they saw that and they saw how important it was to
2
not just to be a black player but to develop team
3
relationship on the team, during the game, not
4
after the game, not summertime, but during the
5
game you gotta look at team relationship, not as a
6
race but as a skill that you have and they have,
7
and teaching, that's what I do.
8
My mother and my father taught me how to
9
behave, because in my population there were games
10
that hated white folks and Mexican, they created
11
all kind of stuff.
12
Couple weeks ago I was in this group here
13
that took a tour to Armourdale.
14
grew up.
15
Black folk lived only in white section of
16
Armourdale, Mexican lived in the other section,
17
but they had a few white folks they lived with but
18
not black folks, and there were no excuse.
19
That's where I
Armourdale was very, very segregated.
You couldn't even buy, you couldn't go down
20
to the store and shop.
You had to go to a shop
21
and come through the black section (19:23:04
22
indiscernible), Katz, all them stores.
23
that's changed, not because they changed it,
24
because we said we are citizens of this country
25
the same as you are, and we pursued that and we
Today
�73
1
2
have to teach racial relationship.
We have to teach Bible relationship more than
3
racial.
You don't understand the Bible, I can
4
appreciate that because Satan is telling you what
5
the hell to do, and I still do that right even
6
here, that I don't look at racial relationship, I
7
look at human relationship.
8
So that was my thesis whenever I get my
9
teaching and preaching and -- one of my most
10
difficult situation was the cause of maintaining
11
the black organization I created for equal
12
opportunity through the NAACP, still doing that.
13
The NAACP is seeking racial relation, not black
14
relation, improve the quality of life of all
15
people and opportunity.
16
because he or she is denied that opportunity.
17
don't think if you have evaluated the employment
18
of women white women get a better population than
19
black women but all women get discriminated, same
20
thing, they only get the second portion of
21
(19:24:54 indiscernible), the paycheck and what
22
have you.
23
You select a black person
I
One of the most famous songs I remember, I
24
still sing it, I still sing it, because they say
25
it every day.
Every day at the packing house, I
�74
1
was living in Armourdale and working at Armour's
2
packing house, my father worked there as well, and
3
every Friday at noon the paycheck, the clerk would
4
come through and hand you your paycheck.
5
dollar, another day, another dollar.
6
that:
7
spend that damn dollar anywhere.
Another day, another dollar.
Another
I still say
But you could
8
You ever hear that song, Kansas City?
9
(Singing)
10
City, here I come.
11
and I'm gonna get me, they say one, I say two.
12
Going to Kansas City.
Kansas
There's some busy little women
Going to 18th and Vine.
Lincoln Theater was
13
a very popular theater for black (19:25:58
14
indiscernible).
15
was owned and run by black people, sit any damn
16
where you want to in the hospital, at Lincoln.
17
Cole down the street from there, in Kansas City,
18
Missouri.
They could go in that theater, it
19
In Kansas City, Kansas, they built a theater
20
on 10th Street, and I know it's on 10th Street, I
21
can't think of the crossing street, but only black
22
people could go there.
23
to, but a black man could not go to any school
24
downtown Kansas City, Missouri, Kansas City,
25
Kansas, until the law was passed, and then when
White can if they wanted
�75
1
that happened it was not an easy law for you to go
2
to that church or to go to that school or to go to
3
that show.
4
(19:26:45)
5
MR. HENNING:
6
7
The Gem, right, in the Gem?
that what you're talking about?
DR. MILAN:
Uh-huh.
Is
Gem Theater?
That's one of the
8
theaters that was located for black folks, and we
9
went, and only when they passed the law to improve
10
the equality of movie and educational, social, as
11
well as physical places for all races, it's not a
12
racial relation citizenship.
13
this country become citizens of this country, and
14
that's why we changed it, and we're still trying
15
to change it.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
DR. MILAN:
All persons born in
Right.
Now, we haven't achieved it,
18
because the second most difficult issue is women,
19
changing the equality of women in this country,
20
because they are still being paid less money by
21
the man for the same damn job.
22
(19:27:58)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Dr. Milan, you left
24
Lawrence in 1971.
Why did you leave?
Was it
25
because of threats or did you simply have other
�76
1
opportunities that you wanted to take up
2
elsewhere?
3
DR. MILAN:
No, I left because of the Ku Klux
4
Klan.
5
threat.
6
benefit of my children, and that's what I did.
7
found a house, and the last one I built in Kansas
8
City, Kansas, was right up the street, 7103
9
Waverly Avenue.
10
The whole time I was there I got the
I said I need to make a move for the
I
I got more criticism from a section of the
11
white population, not the whole population,
12
because there were some who got to know us, my
13
wife and my four children, and I still operate the
14
same way, and the reason I got a better friendship
15
with the white families in the neighborhood is
16
because of my thesis.
17
What church you belong at?
Told them,
18
Episcopal Church.
19
in one.
20
church but there was the Episcopal, black
21
Episcopal church, and I say, "I'm not going to
22
give up my religion because I'm the only black
23
person."
24
25
Not a black church.
I grew up
But when I moved there was no black
So Trinity Episcopal Church in Lawrence,
Kansas, you know where that church is?
It's right
�77
1
on the corner, downtown Lawrence.
My family and I
2
went there and were well received, and they gave
3
me a heck of a responsibility, teaching Sunday
4
school and doing this and teaching the young, and
5
I had the youth group that really supported me,
6
not because I was race but because I preached
7
this:
8
woman because she's a woman and not just because
9
she's your race but that's human creation,
You gotta love your neighbor, not just a
10
understanding your role as a creator of God and to
11
carry out God's responsibility.
12
Every day I sing that song as I walk around
13
the building outside and inside in the hallway:
14
(Singing)
15
just black folk, walk with Jesus Christ.
16
Just a closer walk with thee.
Not with
And when I sing that song I sing it to you.
17
We gonna walk with Jesus Christ and me because I'm
18
gonna think about you while I'm walking
19
irrespective of your race and your sex or your
20
gender, and that's how I operate.
21
everybody that knows me, I have many people who
22
hate me and have taken my life but I have more
23
people who protected me and more kids as well as
24
white kids and black kids and God, because I
25
strongly believe, if you ever go to Baldwin go and
Nobody --
�78
1
sit with the people in Mungano.
2
that way.
I don't have a car.
3
the show.
I cannot go to church unless I walk
4
several miles to my church, Episcopal Church, over
5
there, here, but why should I give up my church?
6
And they said, "Because we're not gonna let you,"
7
and they pick me up and doesn't cost me one dime.
8
(19:31:57)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
That's great.
I can't travel
I can't even go to
Now, after you
10
left Lawrence you went to work for the Housing and
11
Urban, Department of Housing and Urban Development
12
and still worked on fair housing issues?
13
about that.
14
DR. MILAN:
Tell me
Well, I became a fair housing
15
employee of the seventh district employment
16
office, it was, we were located downtown Kansas
17
City, Missouri, and I was assigned as a fair
18
housing responsibility and discrimination in other
19
areas and I investigated complaints of
20
discrimination in employment, in housing, and what
21
have you.
22
I found many cases where a house was changed
23
in an all white -- black -- white neighborhood and
24
they bombed the house and did everything they
25
could, and I am (?19:32:59), and there were black
�79
1
folks who wanted to build guns up and become a
2
strong army against white folks.
3
that's not gonna work."
4
more than God?
5
care about particular integration, fair housing,
6
Satan (19:33:29 indiscernible) only black people
7
do what black people want, only white people do
8
what white people want, hate each other, don't
9
love each other.
10
Satan.
I said, "Nope,
You know who you respect
Satan don't particularly
But there are people today who still don't do
11
that.
We still have that issue, and that's what I
12
preached, advocated as a -- I would take students
13
to put on demonstrations of a physical education
14
activity, and one was square dancing and one of
15
the games, to parents and other.
16
loved me not because I was black, because I
17
emphasized loving not just because you're white,
18
because we're working together.
19
teach you L-O-V-E, love.
20
physical activity, it's a social activity, and
21
today we haven't overcome that.
22
overcome that, but I don't care, I'm going to do
23
my best, my best.
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
DR. MILAN:
The children
My job is to
Love is not just a
We have not
Very good.
One of the most important things
�80
1
in my life was singing to women.
2
don't sing to men.
3
us to sing to women, because I really view them as
4
God's angel, and we are angels, too, but God's
5
create them in a special way, to take the seed and
6
produce another human being, and we are to love
7
that human being because we gave the seed from God
8
with that potential, so God's gift to me, and I
9
pass it on through the process of sex and now look
10
I still do.
I sing with them.
I
But I teach
at me.
11
I have good friends, irrespective of their
12
race.
13
that needs to continue to be psychologically,
14
psychologically emphasized in that book, because
15
Satan's still teaching.
16
Race relation is a very strong relation
Did you see what happened on TV the other
17
day?
Do you ever listen to Channel 4?
18
still shooting women.
19
other.
20
not God.
21
the lessons of Satan today, in business, in social
22
activities, in homes, in group gatherings
23
(indiscernible 19:36:39) how women and men are
24
separated in two ways, how a Asian,
25
African-American, Indian, are treated differently.
Why?
Men are
Men are still shooting each
Satan is telling them what to do,
There's still that population that takes
�81
1
My dad was that way because he was a slave of
2
a white man population, a slave on a, of a white
3
man slave (19:37:21 indiscernible) in Milan,
4
Tennessee.
5
had sex with a slave woman.
6
(indiscernible 19:37:33) had sex with the same
7
woman and gave birth and then gave him the name
8
Milan.
9
wasn't no damn Milan.
10
That's how he got the name Milan.
He didn't.
He
His boss
That's how he got the name Milan.
He
She wasn't either.
And that's where I use that name for.
We
11
have every -- and my father's complexion was very,
12
very, not like this white.
13
from my mother, red.
She was an Indian.
14
moved from Oklahoma.
What's the name of that,
15
starts with a D?
16
was a cowboy.
17
had a big gun on his side.
18
I got my complexion
And they
They moved from that, because he
He traveled like I don't know what,
He moved from there to Omaha, Nebraska.
19
Omaha was very segregated, a northern city, and
20
they called themselves integrated because they had
21
a section of town for where black people could
22
live and the Mexicans could live, and they haven't
23
changed that much, because people didn't move out
24
of their property, they had kids and they moved to
25
the same neighborhood.
�82
1
But they moved to Kansas City, to Armourdale,
2
and he went to work at Patman's packing house, and
3
that's where I grew up.
4
segregated in Armourdale.
5
familiar with Osage, it was one of the popular
6
cities(? 19:39:07) in Armourdale, Kansas City
7
street come through.
8
9
But it was very
I don't know if you're
On Seventh and Osage every Saturday the
Olympic, the -- not Olympic.
What do they call
10
it?
11
can't think of the name of it, but anyway, black
12
folks created an organization like that, but when
13
I was in second and third, third grade, third and
14
fourth grade I was a, my (19:39:45 indiscernible)
15
and some of the other boxers were beginning to
16
grow up and box and they developed the boxing
17
sport and this white organization created an
18
opportunity for the kids there in Armourdale, at
19
Seventh and Osage every Saturday they would
20
volunteer to sign up to box and some age and team
21
and race, not race, but they mixed it.
22
Optimist Club, it's a white Optimist Club, I
And I was chosen to go boxing one day.
Now,
23
if you win your three rounds you got a loaf of
24
Taystee bread.
25
that was tremendous, a loaf of Taystee bread, and
Back in the late '30s, early '30s,
�83
1
you take it home, but sometimes some folk didn't
2
get home, but when I won my round I got home,
3
because I took my loaf of bread and ran like hell.
4
They couldn't catch me.
5
track skills.
6
That's where I learned my
My older brother's name is Clarence.
He
7
taught me how to box, because boxing had become a
8
very interesting sport in this country, and he
9
taught me how to box, and I learned how to box.
10
didn't weigh very much, was third grade, second
11
grade, fourth grade, (19:41:24 indiscernible), but
12
when we moved to Wyandotte they didn't have that
13
kind of activity.
14
I
So I gave up boxing and I was playing
15
baseball and I was teaching my brother how to bat,
16
my older brother, and I was pitching and I got hit
17
in the left eye by the bat, which was taken from
18
the wall of the garage with a nail in it, and it
19
went in my eye and as I grew up I had to have eye
20
surgery and I had to have eye surgery in my right
21
eye and my left eye and when I lost that vision,
22
because I was in high school and then married and
23
I was living right up the street, they took my
24
car, I gave it to the rest of the family because I
25
couldn't drive, because my wife took me everywhere
�84
1
2
I needed to go, and so that's what I did.
But that was where I learned that it's by
3
God's creation that I'm able to survive, and I do
4
that today.
5
So teaching is not just going to college and
6
learning from the classroom content and method
7
that you are to impart to collective bodies in the
8
school system by the grace of race -- not race,
9
but age and sex, women role, male role, and
10
whatever, but I don't do that.
I said physical
11
education is not a subject to emphasize physical
12
being, the teaching you of various games and
13
activities and movement, it's teaching you how to
14
use the tools that you have, your arms, your legs,
15
your eyes, and your brain, and your mouth, how to
16
use that information collectively as a group
17
activity, and I still teach that.
18
But I had some white teachers when I was
19
teaching at the sixth and seventh grade said, "Dr.
20
Milan, why don't we get together and go to Kansas
21
City and have a good time?"
22
teacher.
23
to give me a check for a thousand dollars."
24
said, "I don't have that kind of money."
25
"Too bad.
It was a white
I said, "Okay, but before that you have
We can't go."
They
I said,
�85
1
She didn't want to go with me because I was
2
me.
3
other black men.
4
same as I did, respectful and (19:44:20
5
indiscernible) and so forth.
6
they liked the way I sang.
7
I'm a black man and I wasn't living like
A lot of black men lived the
And I sang a lot and
And I sang this one song to my wife for 49
8
years.
She died on our 49th year wedding
9
anniversary.
And you probably have heard this
10
song but you probably don't sing it.
11
married -- and I had a couple wanted me to sing
12
that song at their wedding.
13
(Singing)
When you get
Since I met you, baby, my whole
14
life has changed.
15
life has changed, and everybody tells me that I
16
ain't the same.
17
Since I met you, baby, my whole
(19:45:05 indiscernible) not the same because
18
you won't let me want to do what I want to do.
19
But God says love your neighbor as yourself, not
20
just with sex, not just for fun, not just to pick
21
up somebody, not just to beat up somebody or to
22
try this.
23
know that person and how to understand that person
24
and they you and your situation for the purpose of
25
your advancement, of growth and relationship of
No.
Develop a relationship of how to
�86
1
human being.
2
yourself, and you gotta learn how to do that.
3
God says love your neighbor as
I said, "Now the reason I teach you physical
4
education in the classroom is not just an activity
5
but learn how to take the message of a physical
6
activity to perform and how to join the
7
performance with your neighbor, they call it
8
teamwork, but how to do that and have a good time,
9
loving your neighbor through that."
10
And not only that, take the method of
11
listening to that instruction when the teacher is
12
giving you instruction in the classroom on how to
13
solve a problem, so listen to the parts of the
14
problem that she tells you about that you need to
15
address and relate, this and that, and as a result
16
improve your ability:
17
how to identify what is this thing you're writing
18
about called, the subject, and how to use the
19
other words to make it a valuable, easy
20
communication activity.
How to write a sentence,
21
Excuse me.
22
And that was my teaching.
23
I still teach that
that way.
24
(19:46:57)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
That's wonderful.
Dr. Milan, I
�87
1
have run out of questions and we have been going
2
for a long time.
3
4
Scott, did you have anything you wanted to
ask about?
5
MR. WAGNER:
No.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Anything else you'd like to add
7
that we didn't cover?
8
DR. MILAN:
9
Now you want to take a can of pop
to your wife or your --
10
(Laughter)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, thank you so much.
12
has been wonderful.
13
DR. MILAN:
This
Well, I want to tell you another
14
thing.
If you'd like to have me come to Lawrence
15
for a special occasion I'd be glad to come, except
16
I ain't got no way to get there.
17
MR. WAGNER:
Okay.
18
DR. MILAN:
19
MR. WAGNER:
Well, we can get you there.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
We are actually thinking the
It's too damn far to walk.
21
spring, in April, there's going to be some
22
commemorations of the fair housing ordinance and
23
this is part of that project, but I know Scott and
24
the City and probably the Watkins Museum would
25
love to have you come back to Lawrence and we will
�88
1
figure out a way to get you there if you want to
2
come and participate in those activities.
3
MR. WAGNER:
4
DR. MILAN:
5
MR. ARNOLD:
No.
6
MR. WAGNER:
We'll have somebody --
7
DR. MILAN:
8
MR. WAGNER:
9
10
Right.
I could catch a bus.
I have --- make sure we get you
transportation to Lawrence.
DR. MILAN:
I don't have no money.
My check,
11
my wife, Alversa, when I retired she developed how
12
to handle my check, because when they gave me the
13
check at work I brought it and gave it to her and
14
she decided what I needed and what I didn't need,
15
but what she would do, she would fry some chicken.
16
Man, she was a good chicken fryer.
17
we got married:
18
relationship, because she was a damn good cook.
Not because of the sexual
19
Well, gentlemen.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
22
23
24
25
But that's why
Thank you so much.
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Milan, Jesse
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Jesse Milan
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.)
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Jesse Milan, who was a teacher in the Lawrence public schools and the president of the Lawrence chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 21, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Milan, Jesse
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/21/2016
Contributor
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Arnold, Tom
Rights
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This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/jesse-milan-leveled-audio?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>Click <a href="https://youtu.be/EocwV5K9Vkc">here</a> to view the video recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
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PDF
Identifier
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MilanInterview102116.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1946 - 1967
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/21dbb67757a006513067ce4237cb6da6.pdf
705788caf1fc1ac32af80847ce051075
PDF Text
Text
1
1
2
CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
3
4
LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
5
50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
6
7
8
9
10
11
Interview of Dorothy Harvey
12
November 11, 2016
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
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23
24
25
�2
1
(10:42:53)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is November 11th, 2016.
3
am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing
4
Mrs. Dorothy Harvey via telephone in Lawrence,
5
Kansas, for the City of Lawrence Fair Housing
6
Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
7
I
At the time the ordinance passed in July,
8
1967, Mrs. Harvey was serving as the president of
9
the Church Women United of Lawrence, and,
10
Mrs. Harvey, I just want to tell you that I am
11
recording our conversation and confirm I have your
12
permission to do that.
13
MRS. HARVEY:
You do.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Thank you.
To start off, tell
15
me a little bit about your background.
16
grow up in Lawrence and were you a lifelong
17
resident?
18
19
20
21
MRS. HARVEY:
Kansas.
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
What year was that, do
you recall?
MRS. HARVEY:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
25
I grew up in Kansas City,
I came to Lawrence to go to K.U.
22
24
No.
Did you
1943.
All right.
And then did you
stay in Lawrence after that?
MRS. HARVEY:
I married and I moved to
�3
1
2
3
Lawrence in 1945.
MR. ARNOLD:
All right.
And then you have
lived here continuously since then?
4
MRS. HARVEY:
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
To start off how about
6
describing for me what Lawrence was like for an
7
African-American in the 1950s and 1960s.
8
9
MRS. HARVEY:
For me Lawrence was something I
had to adjust to, a city I had to adjust to,
10
because I had grown up in Kansas City, Kansas,
11
where we had swimming pools and recreational
12
centers where we could go.
13
Lawrence there was nothing like that here and in
14
the '50s and '60s it had not progressed to any
15
degree.
16
When I came to
I joined the AME Church, St. Luke AME Church,
17
when I moved here because I had grown up in the
18
AME Church in Kansas City, Kansas.
19
didn't offer African-Americans very much at that
20
point.
21
the housing when I came to K.U., we lived at the
22
base of the hill in private housing.
23
K.U. didn't offer much.
Lawrence
We didn't live in
I don't know what else I can tell you except
24
that people wanted to move into other areas of
25
Lawrence now.
When I married I moved into the
�4
1
rural area of Lawrence and I've lived out here
2
ever since, but people could not buy anywhere in
3
Lawrence.
4
Lawrence and East Lawrence.
They were locked in to Old West
5
(10:45:57)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
was definite very strict housing discrimination --
8
MRS. HARVEY:
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
Right.
-- in terms of your
opportunities?
11
MRS. HARVEY:
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
swimming pool.
14
frustration.
15
children, or --
16
So for African-Americans there
That's right.
And you also mentioned the
I know that was an issue of
Did that affect you personally, your
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes.
I took my children either
17
back to Kansas City or to Topeka and there were a
18
number of us young mothers in St. Luke who wanted
19
our children to learn to swim so we would get
20
together after church on Sunday and take them to
21
Topeka and they were taught there how to swim.
22
All this happened, even this continued for quite
23
awhile in Lawrence.
24
the pools opened up.
25
(10:46:51)
I don't really remember when
�5
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I think the new pool was
2
built, they approved it in 1967, the municipal
3
pool, and I think it was opened in 1968 or '69, so
4
before that definitely there was limited
5
opportunity for African-Americans, maybe none at
6
all.
7
MRS. HARVEY:
8
(10:47:09)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Now, what would you say were the
10
primary impediments to bringing about change in
11
some of those discriminatory practices?
12
MRS. HARVEY:
Well, it amounted to the
13
churches organizing and the people in their
14
frustrations began to demand some things.
15
did walks.
16
particularly, but they did a lot of marching here
17
in Lawrence.
They
I don't really remember sit-ins
18
(10:47:44)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And who would you say
20
was trying to prevent change?
21
groups that --
22
MRS. HARVEY:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember any
Not by name, no.
Okay.
Now, there were many
24
groups that included both white and
25
African-American people fighting for change and
�6
1
Church Women United was one of those groups.
2
would you describe the composition of that group,
3
the types of people, what churches were involved?
4
MRS. HARVEY:
How
Church Women United was
5
organized in 1941, I believe it was, in December,
6
in Atlantic City, New Jersey.
7
the auspices of the ministerial alliances and
8
there were 70 denominations, as I remember.
9
Sometimes you just had two or three churches of
10
the same denomination, but at that juncture we
11
were United Church Women and we met monthly
12
locally and then there was a state organization
13
which met once a year, but we were organized with
14
the various groups of the various churches coming
15
together.
16
one representative from the women's group of that
17
particular church.
18
It was under the
Ministers' wives were included and then
I'm not sure I can name all of the churches,
19
but as I remember there were, course at that point
20
there was just Methodist Church, they were not
21
United Methodists at that point, but there were at
22
least three of them in Lawrence.
23
Baptist Church, Presbyterian Church, Plymouth
24
Congregational, and all of these churches were
25
downtown at that point and we met from church to
There was the
�7
1
church.
There were two African Methodist
2
Episcopal churches, there were two [indationary]
3
Baptist churches, which were black churches.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
MRS. HARVEY:
Okay.
First Church.
Let me see.
6
Well, we call it the Christian Church.
Is it the
7
First Church?
8
[Lawrence Interdenominational Nutrition Kitchen],
9
First Christian Church, but most of the larger
It's where they serve LINK
10
white churches were involved, and there weren't a
11
whole lot of the black churches.
12
churches that I mentioned.
13
(10:50:58)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
The four
Okay, so all the
15
African-American churches were involved but it was
16
a small number --
17
MRS. HARVEY:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. HARVEY:
20
Oh, not all?
Okay.
There were smaller African
Methodist churches.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MRS. HARVEY:
23
Not all, no.
Okay.
I mean, smaller, yes, black
churches, but they were not all involved.
24
(10:51:13)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I understand.
Now, what
�8
1
got the United Church Women interested in the
2
housing issue, do you recall?
3
MRS. HARVEY:
It came from the national.
4
Most of our directives came through the national
5
program, then we would work on the local level,
6
but we could also choose a local project if we so
7
desired, but at that point, of course, we went
8
with the national program to work on fair housing.
9
(10:51:45)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
And in 1964, according to
11
some records I've seen, the United Church Women
12
conducted a housing study or a housing survey and
13
they also gathered signatures from members of
14
various churches and I think got 845 signatures in
15
favor of fair housing.
16
MRS. HARVEY:
17
mention it, yes.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. HARVEY:
20
(10:52:17)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall that study?
Yes, I recall, now that you
Were you involved in that?
If it was in the '60s, yes.
And do you recall what the group
22
was hoping to accomplish by that study and by
23
gathering those signatures?
24
25
MRS. HARVEY:
Basically what we wanted to do
was just open the housing up to anybody who wanted
�9
1
to look at housing.
You weren't even shown
2
housing in that day.
3
looking for homes, we were just trying to look
4
toward the future as to what our own families
5
would want.
6
can remember that.
7
Go ahead.
And most of us were not
It amounted to a lot of meetings, I
8
(10:53:04)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
A lot of time was involved.
Were you surprised that you got
10
845 signatures?
11
number of signatures in favor of fair housing.
12
Was that an encouraging sign for you?
13
I mean, that's a fairly large
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, it was an encouraging
14
sign.
I'm not sure that we were surprised because
15
there were a lot of people who were behind the
16
movement, but they just didn't come forward when
17
we would have public meetings and so, if I
18
remember right, we sent these petitions to all the
19
churches and people signed, and then we probably
20
took them in to count it.
21
(10:53:49)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
24
25
And why do you think some people
were supportive but would not come forward?
MRS. HARVEY:
their jobs.
A lot of them were afraid of
A lot of them were just people who
�10
1
did not come forward, they just, they stayed at
2
home.
3
didn't come forward.
4
(10:54:10)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
They talked in the background but they
Right.
And who were the people
6
who were mostly opposed to changing fair housing?
7
Was it mostly the real estate industry or --
8
MRS. HARVEY:
I don't know.
I think the real
9
estate people had a little to do with it but also
10
it depended on the person who owned the home, and
11
a lot of those homes were owned by, we found, by
12
professors on the hill, and people with money who
13
had, and then didn't want to open their
14
neighborhoods.
15
(10:54:50)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MRS. HARVEY:
Right.
It --
(indiscernible) such families
18
had a fear of opening the neighborhood to other
19
minority groups.
20
(10:54:59)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
23
And was that because they were
afraid that property values might decline or -MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, that was one of the things
24
they would say, and then of course they would say
25
that they weren't educated, as well educated as
�11
1
they thought they should be, and they were afraid
2
that their girls would be violated.
3
(10:55:22)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And it's interesting you
5
mention the people up on the hill, because some of
6
the things that we have seen indicate that many of
7
the members of the white community that fought in
8
favor of fair housing were university people, but
9
obviously that wasn't all of them.
10
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, they were out there, but
11
we found in checking that a lot of the housing
12
which was substandard was owned by, like I said,
13
people on the hill and people of wealth.
14
didn't keep them up.
15
(10:55:58)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
So did you personally ever experience
They
Yes, that's interesting.
18
discrimination in housing or did your family just
19
remain living --
20
MRS. HARVEY:
No.
I married a local farmer,
21
Harvey.
I married into the Harvey family, which
22
is a well-documented family here, Rebecca Harvey.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
24
MRS. HARVEY:
25
here since 1863, so --
And they've always lived out
�12
1
2
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Wow.
That's an old Lawrence
family.
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, the farm was always here
4
and we never, as I said, we were not looking for
5
housing, but we did have children and we didn't
6
know what they would want.
7
(10:56:41)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Right, exactly.
So after your
study was completed, and I know I remember reading
10
in the newspaper that some of the information
11
about your study was published in the
12
Journal-World and the mention that 845 people had
13
supported it, but did you see any immediate change
14
in attitudes as a result of the United Church
15
Women's effort?
16
MRS. HARVEY:
Not immediate.
It was probably
17
two or three years before we began to see people
18
moving into other areas.
19
(10:57:18)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And then in 1967 the
21
Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee -- do
22
you recall that organization?
23
24
25
MRS. HARVEY:
No, I don't.
I'm sure it was
there but I don't remember who.
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
It was a group that came
�13
1
together, kind of an umbrella group with, I think
2
United Church Women were a part of it, the NAACP,
3
a number of other organizations kind of came
4
together and formed this umbrella and in January,
5
1967, they took the proposal to the Lawrence Human
6
Relations Commission to draft a fair housing
7
ordinance and then that went to the Lawrence City
8
Commission, who approved it, passed it in July of
9
1967, and at one of the meetings we actually have
10
the minutes that you spoke on behalf of
11
representing the United Church Women in support of
12
fair housing.
13
Commission was willing to pass that ordinance in
14
1967 or do you feel like by then there was enough
15
support across the community that the issue's time
16
had finally come?
17
MRS. HARVEY:
Were you surprised that the City
I think it was just time, and
18
there were enough people behind the issue that
19
they were willing to pass that ordinance, and some
20
of them probably had been on the committee, you
21
know, with us.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MRS. HARVEY:
24
25
Right.
I just can't go back 50 years
and think of -- I can -(10:58:54)
�14
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
2
MRS. HARVEY:
-- remember some of the women,
3
but -- and some of the ministers, but otherwise I
4
can't really call their names.
5
(10:59:06)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
I understand it's been 50
7
years and it's difficult to remember specifics.
8
Do you feel like the role of the churches,
9
both individually and then through groups like the
10
United Church Women, played an important role in
11
bringing about the passage of the Fair Housing
12
Ordinance that --
13
MRS. HARVEY:
14
Oh yes, we played a big role in
that.
15
(10:59:29)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, it's interesting, as I've
17
talked to people many people got involved because
18
of, you know, through their churches.
19
know whether you remember a Reverend Richard Dulin
20
but he was the chairman of the Fair Housing
21
Coordinating Committee.
22
Congregational Church, but it definitely seems
23
that the churches played a very important role.
24
25
MRS. HARVEY:
important role.
I don't
He was from Plymouth
Yes, the churches played an
Like I said, there were 70
�15
1
denominations and of course you doesn't have all
2
of those in one city, but those churches were, the
3
ministers were involved and the Ecumenical
4
Ministerial Alliance, they pushed it very hard and
5
they pushed, well, they'd tell their women when
6
you go you take this message from our church, and
7
then that was the way we would get the message
8
out.
9
When we met our goal was to be united and
10
that's what I was going to say.
11
in the late '50s or the early '60s that we changed
12
the name to Church Women United to put the
13
emphasis on united.
14
(11:00:53)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Very good.
It was somewhere
Were you involved in
16
any other organizations, any other groups that
17
were fighting for social change or was your
18
primary efforts through Church Women United?
19
MRS. HARVEY:
At that point it was probably
20
primarily through Church Women United.
21
became active by being appointed to various
22
organizations by the county commission.
23
(11:01:23)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Okay.
Later I
And do you recall Church
Women United being involved in other issues
�16
1
besides fair housing?
2
educational opportunities in the schools and did
3
they fight for the swimming pool, do you remember?
4
MRS. HARVEY:
Were they trying to improve
Oh yes, yes, they fought for
5
the swimming pool and anything that was of
6
interest.
7
give us a concert at one point when Dr. King was
8
so active.
9
but it also had to been in the '60s, I think.
We had Mrs. Martin Luther King come and
I can't remember what year that was
10
(11:02:07)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
That's interesting.
I'll
12
have to see if I can do a little research and find
13
out from the newspapers maybe mentions that.
14
15
16
So it sounds like the Church Women United was
a very active group and -MRS. HARVEY:
It was a very active group and
17
it remained active until the churches began to --
18
the women began to go out to work, let me put it
19
that way, and then the churches did not maintain
20
women's groups per se, so that was when we
21
disband.
22
(11:02:43)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
frame?
25
remember?
Okay.
Do you remember what time
Was that the 1970s, 1980s, do you
�17
1
MRS. HARVEY:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Probably in the '80s, I think.
Okay.
Do you remember from that
3
time frame any particular individuals who stand
4
out in your mind who played an important
5
leadership role in trying to push for civil rights
6
and changes in Lawrence?
One name that comes to
7
my mind was Jesse Milan.
Did you know Jesse?
8
9
10
MRS. HARVEY:
Spearman.
Yes, I knew Jesse Milan.
At that point he was Reverend Benton
Anderson that was a pastor here in Lawrence.
11
I'm trying to think of the pastors in the
12
larger white churches.
13
me.
14
(11:03:51)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
17
John
Okay.
The names aren't coming to
Well, as we said, it's
been 50 years so that's quite a long time ago.
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, but if we can get any
18
information from those churches of who their
19
pastors were, if they were in the larger churches,
20
like I said, the Presbyterian churches, the
21
Baptist Church and all of the Methodist churches,
22
you will be able to get some information there,
23
because they were very active and through their
24
women's organizations they pressed us to do a lot
25
of things.
We sponsored a World Day of Prayer
�18
1
every year, I remember it was on a Friday and I
2
can't remember whether it was the first Friday or
3
the last Friday in March, but that was something
4
that we did as Church Women United.
5
(11:04:49)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
Would you say -- you
7
know, you had mentioned earlier that one of the
8
goals of yourself and others who were involved in
9
this group wasn't necessarily to bring about
10
change for yourselves but to bring about changes
11
that would benefit and provide opportunities for
12
your children.
13
children stayed in Lawrence, but by the time they
14
were out in the working world and out going out
15
looking for housing would you say things had
16
improved for the better based on your efforts?
17
I don't know whether any of your
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, it had improved to some
18
degree.
My youngest daughter, Deborah Green,
19
taught at Lawrence High School for over 30 years.
20
My older daughter worked here in Lawrence.
21
reared three grandsons through the school system
22
here.
23
(11:05:44)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
We
Okay, and would you say that
they enjoyed much better opportunities in finding
�19
1
2
housing than the generation before them?
MRS. HARVEY:
Let me explain it this way as I
3
see it.
They could go look at the housing but the
4
money was not there.
5
you have to have a job so that they can afford the
6
housing.
7
housing open and they have no jobs to pay for the
8
housing.
It doesn't do any good to have the
9
(11:06:20)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
Now, I've always felt that
Right.
It's really a much more
complicated issue sometimes than just saying, --
12
MRS. HARVEY:
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, it is, --- just saying you can --- and I see it today is still
15
the same thing, we don't have the jobs that pay
16
the kind of money that they need, and we always
17
told our children if you get an education, then
18
you can do whatever you want, but it turns out
19
that even though we get them educated there are
20
not always jobs available for them.
21
(11:06:54)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MRS. HARVEY:
Right.
Such as the school situation.
24
You never had enough minority teachers in the
25
school system here.
When I came there were only,
�20
1
as far as I know, the two teachers who were in
2
North Lawrence in the little black school that
3
they had.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
MRS. HARVEY:
Right.
And it's not much better today.
6
In the 70 years that I have been here I don't see
7
a whole lot of progress.
8
(11:07:33)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
So there may be some progress on
10
paper in that the rules have changed but the
11
actual opportunities are not necessarily there?
12
MRS. HARVEY:
13
(11:07:47)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
That's true.
What would you say, if you were
15
going to give some advice to young people today
16
who might be interested in fighting for social
17
change as you did in the 1960s what advice would
18
you give them as far as encouraging them how to
19
approach trying to bring about change?
20
MRS. HARVEY:
Well, first I would tell them
21
to be sure that you have all the information that
22
you can gather so when you go you can present it
23
and know what you're talking about.
24
25
Secondly, I would encourage our young people
to continue to work toward getting educated and
�21
1
preparing themselves for a life.
2
And then I would tell them to unite with
3
people of like mind, those who are also willing to
4
get out and band together, work for improvement in
5
the community.
6
(11:08:52)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, that's a very good point,
8
and one of the things that I have found most
9
impressive as I have done my research for this
10
project is that what really brought about the Fair
11
Housing Ordinance in Lawrence was the fact that a
12
very diverse group of members of the community
13
banded together in local organizations, grassroots
14
organizations, like Church Women United and the
15
NAACP and others, and they brought about social
16
change.
It took awhile but they brought about
17
change.
Now they didn't necessarily solve every
18
problem but they at least made progress.
19
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes.
It took a lot of doing
20
and I imagine -- back in that day, which most of
21
us belonged to the NAACP and worked through that
22
project, which also worked through the churches.
23
In that day our ministers were very vocal and a
24
lot of help.
25
(11:09:52)
�22
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you think that has changed,
2
that the churches are not as active as they used
3
to be in trying to bring about change?
4
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, very much so.
I don't see
5
them out in the forefront like they were back in
6
the '60s, '50s and '60s.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MRS. HARVEY:
9
Right.
I don't know what has brought
about the change but they seem to be, well, people
10
are not going to church, just let me put it that
11
way, people are not going to church like they did
12
back in that day.
13
(11:10:29)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, and, you know, I've heard
15
some people say that younger people today are not
16
joiners like they were back in your generation.
17
They don't necessarily join organizations, whether
18
it's churches or groups like the NAACP, they just
19
don't tend to get as involved and maybe that's
20
taken away some opportunities for people to come
21
together and fight for issues.
22
MRS. HARVEY:
Well, some of the people that I
23
talk to in that younger age group, they don't see
24
any progress and they see no reason to get out
25
there and walk and talk and try to improve the
�23
1
situation.
They just seem to feel like they're
2
not going anywhere and so why should they bother.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MRS. HARVEY:
Right.
Yes, --
And I don't know how to help
5
them in that sense.
6
to tell them what we did, and of course they think
7
a lot of that was just old fogeyism, is a term
8
that they use, so I don't know how to help them
9
with that, but they are going to have to wake up
10
one day and see that the progress that has been
11
made is slowly being eroded and if they don't get
12
out and do something about it they're going to
13
find themselves back in the same situation that we
14
did back in the '50s and '60s.
15
(11:12:13)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Except listen to them and try
Right.
I think you make a very
17
good point in that and we are hoping that projects
18
like this which help capture kind of the memories
19
of those of you who were involved in that movement
20
back in those days will help encourage younger
21
people today to realize they can bring about
22
change if they work together and try to make the
23
system work even though sometimes the system seems
24
like it's hard to change.
25
MRS. HARVEY:
Yes, it's hard to change, and
�24
1
sometimes you don't really see the change that you
2
thought you would see.
3
people have not gone through some of the things
4
that my generation went through so therefore they
5
don't understand what we're talking about how
6
times have changed and how things were and you
7
couldn't do things openly in Lawrence; well, just
8
openly period.
9
where they expected minorities to remain, but
It's there but our young
You had a back seat and that's
10
there was always a group that was discouraged by
11
the failures that were going on.
12
do better, they wanted to have homes that
13
represented them.
14
that were beautiful.
15
progress to some degree but not to the degree that
16
I thought it would be by now.
17
(11:13:49)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
They wanted to
They wanted to move into areas
But I think there's been
Right.
Well, Mrs. Harvey, I
19
just have one last question and that is as you
20
reflect back on what you were involved in in the
21
1960s what do you feel like you are most proud of
22
in the things that you worked on and what you
23
accomplished?
24
25
MRS. HARVEY:
Well, I guess I'd have to be
proud of the fact that we did stand up for what we
�25
1
thought were our rights, that we did not falter
2
when things did not go our way, we continued to
3
push to get our people on the boards, like the
4
school board and the hospital board and so many
5
things that were not open to minorities in the
6
'50s and '60s.
7
And I was proud of the fact that my daughter,
8
who went to Lawrence High School, came back and
9
was able to teach there for that many years, that
10
we were able to get our children educated and help
11
them to see that there was a future but that you
12
have to be a part of that future, you can't sit
13
back and rest on your laurels.
14
got one thing open doesn't mean that there wasn't
15
another door that needed to be opened.
16
(11:15:32)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Just because we
Well, I think those are
18
very good thoughts and I appreciate you giving me
19
the time to interview you and capture some of your
20
memories and your reflections on that time period.
21
Before we end the interview is there anything
22
else, any other subjects I haven't touched on that
23
you would like to share?
24
25
MRS. HARVEY:
No.
I think we've touched on
all of them, and I appreciate you calling me and
�26
1
allowing me to do this interview by phone.
2
sorry I didn't meet you in person, but I certainly
3
wish you the best in this project.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
I'm
Well, thank you very much, and
5
thank you for your time and thank you for what you
6
contributed to fair housing.
7
city still believes it is a very important topic
8
and they wanted to take advantage of the 50th
9
anniversary to try and capture some memories of
As you can tell, the
10
the people who helped to put it in place and then
11
also use this information to promote fair housing,
12
because I think, as you have noted earlier, even
13
though you bring about change, things can start
14
slipping back the other way if you don't
15
reemphasize it and keep it fresh in people's minds
16
and keep fighting for it.
17
MRS. HARVEY:
Well, thank you for
18
interviewing me and allowing me to share.
19
thoughts are not as clear as I had hoped they
20
would be but I certainly hope I have helped you in
21
some way.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
My
Well, you certainly have, and
23
thank you again, Mrs. Harvey, and I really
24
appreciate you giving me the time.
25
nice to talk to you.
It was very
�27
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MRS. HARVEY:
Thank you.
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harvey, Dorothy
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
0:34:22
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Dorothy Harvey
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.)
Protest movements -- Kansas -- Lawrence
United Church Women of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Dorothy Harvey, who was serving as the president of the United Church Women of Lawrence at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on November 11, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harvey, Dorothy
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11/11/2016
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/dorothy-harvey-11nov2016?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
HarveyInterview111116.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1940s - 2010s
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/05f97ed99fde51e3eaca3bc2e0141522.pdf
067d8c3962d55a36ef635e42eabaade0
PDF Text
Text
1
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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
5
50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
6
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Interview of Honorable Fred N. Six
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October 5, 2016
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�2
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is October 5th, 2016.
I
2
am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing Fred
3
Six at the Lawrence Public Library for the City of
4
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary
5
Oral History Project.
6
passed in July, 1967, Justice Six was serving as
7
the secretary of the Lawrence Human Relations
8
Commission.
9
At the time the ordinance
Justice Six, let's start by having you tell
10
me a bit about your early background, including
11
what brought you to Lawrence and what you were
12
doing here in the mid 1960s.
13
JUSTICE SIX:
What brought me to Lawrence was
14
my mother and my father.
15
moved here when I was five years old and my dad
16
had been principal of the Vinland High School.
17
Vinland had a high school then.
18
football coach, janitor, math teacher, vocational
19
ag. teacher, and a position opened up as the
20
county extension agent, county farm agent, and he
21
applied for the position and was hired and we
22
moved from Vinland to Lawrence into the 1700 block
23
on Mississippi Street just south of the campus and
24
made one more move next door.
25
I moved here, my family
He was principal,
My parents purchased a home at 1732
�3
1
Mississippi Street and I resided there until, all
2
through high school, college, and in 19 -- I
3
graduated from K.U. in 1951.
4
Then the Korean War was on.
All of us who
5
were male and able-bodied were required to
6
register for the draft, and the Korean War had
7
been declared 1950, in the summer.
8
my graduation year, along with many, many other
9
young men all over America, I had orders to report
So in April of
10
for active duty, and I was in a Marine Corps
11
program while in college and so that packet
12
arrived around Easter and it was keyed to
13
graduation and upon graduation you were
14
commissioned a second lieutenant in the United
15
States Marine Corps and given a set of orders to
16
report to Quantico, Virginia, at a certain date,
17
and of course I took that seriously and was in the
18
Marine Corps for a period of two years and then
19
returned to Lawrence from Korea.
20
I was a little late, it was in the summer,
21
1953, and law school here had started, so I
22
arrived back in Kansas City, flight was from Japan
23
to Wake Island to Hawaii, couple of days in Hawaii
24
in the Barbers Point Naval Air Station waiting to
25
be manifest back to San Francisco to Treasure
�4
1
Island and then from Treasure Island we were
2
released and I flew to Kansas City and reported in
3
to the law school maybe a week or so after the
4
summer term had started and lived in my, my
5
parents' home while going to law school.
6
actually walked up from 1700 block on Mississippi
7
Street to old Green Hall.
I
8
And on graduation from law school I took a
9
position with a firm in New York City and I was
10
there, shortly returned to Kansas, to Topeka, and
11
I was in, I was an assistant attorney general.
12
John Anderson, Jr., was the attorney general who
13
hired me and he became governor in 1960 and
14
served -- the governor then had two-year terms
15
rather than four, and he was elected for two
16
two-year terms.
17
In 1958 I returned to Lawrence as an
18
associate with the firm of Asher & Ellsworth and
19
then became a partner.
20
the firm, which was Robert F. Ellsworth, was
21
elected to the United States Congress.
22
was Fred Ellsworth, after whom Ellsworth Hall is
23
named at the university.
24
long-time beloved alumni secretary at the
25
university.
In 1960 the Ellsworth of
His father
Fred Ellsworth was a
�5
1
So Bob then went off to Washington with his
2
family and I was left as a single, single
3
practitioner, and I knew I didn't want to practice
4
law alone.
5
to handle the development of the law in the way I
6
thought it ought to be practiced as an individual.
7
It was -- I just wasn't smart enough
And Richard A. Barber was a man I admired.
8
His office was down the hall from, right over
9
Starbucks now, it was the old Lawrence National
10
Bank building, and so I walked down the hall and
11
asked Dick Barber if he'd hire me.
12
hired a close friend of mine, John Emerson, and he
13
said yes and so Emerson and I were associates of
14
Barber and then shortly, maybe 1962 or so, the
15
firm Barber, Emerson & Six was formed.
16
is now known as Barber Emerson and has a lovely
17
office off South Park on Massachusetts Street.
18
He'd already
The firm
So we practiced law in the bank and then
19
moved into the new building we built and I
20
practiced law here in Lawrence until 1987, when I
21
was appointed by Governor Mike Hayden to the
22
Kansas Court of Appeals, and then a year later
23
Governor Hayden appointed me to the Kansas Supreme
24
Court and I served on that court until the
25
mandatory retirement.
Under Kansas law at that
�6
1
time a judge had to retire at age 70 or if you
2
were within the middle of your term, because the
3
Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals were merit
4
selection positions and so you went before a
5
committee, committee winnowed it out, submitted
6
three names to the governor; the governor made a
7
choice.
8
9
So I was, I reached age 70 in the middle of
my six-year term and I was permitted to serve
10
until 2003 and then by statute I was mandatorily
11
retired, and that brings us up to 2003 and we're
12
now at 2016, so I have been here in Lawrence again
13
and lived in Lawrence all the time I worked in
14
Topeka, commuted, actually on, the bypass went in
15
about the time I was commuting and that worked out
16
well.
17
And that brings us up to the Lawrence
18
connection that you asked about, and except for
19
the Marine Corps time, time in Cherry Point, North
20
Carolina, Washington, D.C., and Korea and then
21
working in New York City, why, I've been here in
22
Lawrence.
23
24
25
MR. ARNOLD:
So you truly are a lifelong
Lawrencian?
JUSTICE SIX:
Yes.
�7
1
[10:08]
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Was it something that you
3
experienced in the Marine Corps that influenced
4
you to pursue a career in law or is that something
5
you knew you wanted to do even before you went
6
into the Marines?
7
JUSTICE SIX:
8
tangential influence.
9
assigned to a United Nations unit in the China
The Marine Corps had just a
When I was in Korea I was
10
Sea.
You may recall that one day the Russian
11
representative at the U.N. on the Security Council
12
was in a tiff and left and that's when the
13
resolution was passed to intervene in the Korean
14
conflict, so it became a U.N. operation.
15
And there was a British operation in the
16
China Sea in which there was one American aircraft
17
carrier, one British carrier, and the destroyers
18
or frigates that formed the screen fore and aft,
19
port and starboard, were from New Zealand, Canada,
20
the United Kingdom, U.S., and I was in the
21
squadron.
22
There was a Marine squadron on the United
23
States carrier and in that squadron was a fellow
24
who'd gone to law school at Washington University
25
in St. Louis and he talked to me as we got
�8
1
acquainted.
He had been recalled for the Korean
2
War but I think what really influenced me, I
3
didn't have any lawyers in my family, no law
4
background, but the dean of the law school, Dean
5
Fred Moreau, had run into my mother down on
6
Massachusetts Street, and my mother was a
7
talkative woman, proud of her son, so you didn't
8
need to ask about me, she'd talk, and Dean Moreau
9
wrote me a personal letter, nobody had ever
10
written me a personal letter before, asking me to
11
come to law school.
12
And I kept that letter with me and I'd read
13
it over and over again.
14
things:
15
written communication, saying we'd like you to
16
come see us or thank you or -- and that outreach,
17
so when I returned, why, I went up and talked to
18
the dean and he enrolled me.
19
20
It taught me a number of
One, the sweet nature of a personal
[13:25]
MR. ARNOLD:
Great.
Let's move on to your
21
experience as a member of the Human Relations
22
Commission and what Lawrence was like in that time
23
frame.
24
of the Human Relations Commission in, I think it
25
was in 1964?
To start with, how did you become a member
�9
1
JUSTICE SIX:
The mayor of Lawrence then was
2
Jim Owens and he called me one day at the office
3
and asked me if I would fill a position that was
4
vacant and he told me a little bit about the
5
commission, told me who was on it then, and I knew
6
the names.
7
Lawrence in the 1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s knew of
8
her.
9
community.
"Petey" Cerf, anybody who lived in
She had a remarkable influence on the
And the chairman was Dr. William Bins,
10
who happened to be a neighbor of where I lived, he
11
was affiliated with K.U., and others then on the
12
commission that I knew, so I said yes and joined
13
the commission.
14
When the then-secretary, Mrs. Eugene Wallace,
15
became chairman of the commission, then I was by
16
the commission members asked to be the secretary,
17
so I was the secretary through '65, '66, '67, on
18
into probably '68.
19
I went off the commission but it maybe was '68,
20
'69.
21
22
I don't remember exactly when
[15:31]
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Before getting into any
23
of the specifics of your work on the Human
24
Relations Commission I'd like to have you describe
25
to me as best you can recall what the city was
�10
1
like at the time, particularly in terms of the
2
racial climate and obvious elements of segregation
3
or discrimination.
4
recognized at the time and helped kind of motivate
5
you to want to become a member of the commission
6
to try and address those issues?
7
JUSTICE SIX:
Was that something that you
Yes.
The city had gone through
8
a historical period in 19-, oh, let me think the
9
time of the troubles.
There was racial unrest
10
throughout the country.
I can't specifically pin
11
the dates on Watts in Los Angeles but Lawrence had
12
no, in 1964, when Jim Owens called me, Lawrence
13
had no public swimming pool.
14
pool called the Jayhawk Plunge that was out off
15
Sixth Street and I knew it well because when I was
16
a small boy, being white, I was entitled to swim
17
there and my mother would prepare a peanut butter
18
and jelly sandwich and give me a nickel for a
19
bottle of Neon Orange pop and I'd get on the bus,
20
public bus, at the corner of Mississippi and 17th,
21
ride down to where the First National Bank was,
22
which is now Merchants restaurant, ask for a
23
transfer, transfer to a bus that would let me off
24
at Michigan and Sixth Street, and walk up to the
25
swimming pool; reverse it on the way home.
It had a private
�11
1
So a group of faculty members at the
2
university had sensed the inequality, the
3
discomfort of this situation, and there was unrest
4
at the university as well.
5
surfacing, the lack of opportunity for employment,
6
and of course housing was merely one of many
7
discriminatory practices.
8
9
Employment was
More prominent at least to, to me as a white
person, was the public accommodations for eating
10
and restaurants.
The Civil Rights Act was adopted
11
in 1964 and signed by President Lyndon Johnson but
12
the Lawrence theaters were segregated.
13
Granada Theater, which is still there, a venue for
14
rock bands and others, had phosphorescent rims on
15
the last couple of rows that would glow in the
16
dark and that's where African-Americans were to
17
sit.
The
18
At the Patee Theater, which is no longer
19
existent but is the arcade on Massachusetts Street
20
on the east side in the block between Eighth
21
Street and Seventh Street, you had to sit in the
22
balcony if you were African-American, and the same
23
was true in the Jayhawker Theater, which is now
24
Liberty Hall.
25
And so as an adult with a wife and two small
�12
1
children in 1964 I'd come back to the community
2
and my eyes were opened, not as broadly as they
3
should have been, but I began to talk to myself
4
and say, where was I when I was a teenager?
5
went to Lawrence High School.
6
play basketball; they had their own basketball
7
league.
8
could run track.
9
Blacks couldn't
They, they couldn't play football.
Where was I?
I
They
I was president of the Student
10
Council, Lawrence High School.
11
didn't protest, I didn't hold -- I mean, I was
12
oblivious to all of this, and I, I remember my
13
mother, who sort of started the theater in
14
Lawrence, the children's theater, and she had
15
annual plays which were performed in the high
16
school auditorium and she began to outreach for
17
African-American children to bring them into the
18
plays, so in 1964 when Jim Owens made the call I
19
gladly, I thought, this is something that I can
20
do.
21
What did I do?
I
During the Monday night questioning period
22
the city attorney, Toni Wheeler, asked a question
23
of me if I'd felt any pushback in working on the
24
ordinance and I said no, I hadn't [this refers to
25
the Diverse Dialogues:
Fair Housing at 50:
Then
�13
1
and Now program held at Lawrence Public Library on
2
October 3, 2016]."
3
who didn't retain me as an attorney because they
4
were of another persuasion, I don't know about
5
that, but I do know apropos to that question that
6
I felt at the time, my family were rooted in the
7
community, and I know this is the way that Ship
8
Winter felt, who was on the Human Relations
9
Commission, and Glenn Kappelman felt, because both
10
11
12
Maybe there were some people
of them had grown up in Lawrence.
[22:13]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I was going to get to
13
that question later but since you brought it up
14
let me elaborate a little bit on the pushback
15
issue.
16
concerned at all when you all took up the issue of
17
developing a fair housing ordinance?
18
think you might get pushback from elements of the
19
community other than obviously the real estate
20
industry?
21
Were the members of the commission
JUSTICE SIX:
Did you
We were aware that it was a hot
22
button issue but we had I think a sense that the
23
city through the mayor, Dick Raney, and the, some
24
of the other commissioners and the city staff were
25
hoping that we would be the point people and that
�14
1
it would move forward, and I didn't have anything
2
but support from my two law partners then.
3
didn't, I didn't even think about asking them, I
4
just said yes and told them that I was going to be
5
on this and that was fine.
6
They
But the reputation of the commission was, was
7
known to me when I looked at who was on it and
8
then there was some turnover, and the members of
9
the commission that actually were involved with
10
the ordinance were Chairman Mrs. Wallace,
11
Mrs. Skipper Williams, Jan Williams, Dorothy
12
Keltz, Mrs. Hal Keltz, Reverend Norman Steffen of
13
the University Lutheran Church, which had, was
14
new, it was out on Bob Billings Parkway and Iowa,
15
and Glenn Kappelman.
16
mayor and he came to the commission, and he had
17
the Owens Flower Shop down on Ninth Street and was
18
prominent and I think moving from the City
19
Commission down to the Human Relations Commission
20
added some gravitas to the makeup of the Human
21
Relations Commission.
22
African-American, who was well thought of, was
23
also on the commission, and the group as a group,
24
commission members worked well together.
25
Jim Owens had just been the
John Spearman, an
Mrs. Skipper Williams and her husband,
�15
1
Skipper Williams, who founded, along with his
2
brother, Odd Williams, the Williams Fund at K.U.,
3
which has taken on significant, a significant role
4
in the K.U. athletic programs, would, I recall a
5
couple of occasions where they would have social
6
functions in their home and invite
7
African-Americans, including Homer Floyd, who was
8
the state civil rights director, and Homer Floyd
9
was known in this community because he'd been
10
recruited from the east as a football star and so
11
the name Homer Floyd was -- and he'd gone on and
12
received I think a master's degree and had come
13
back to Kansas.
14
and he didn't -- I think he was then offered a
15
position maybe in Pennsylvania as the director of
16
their civil rights program.
17
He was just a charming individual
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, and he's still in
18
Pennsylvania and in fact I'm going to be
19
interviewing him around Thanksgiving when I'm back
20
on the east coast.
21
JUSTICE SIX:
22
MR. ARNOLD:
I'm looking forward to that.
Yes.
He I think played a very
23
important role not only in Lawrence but for the
24
state of Kansas.
25
JUSTICE SIX:
Yes, and regrettably his
�16
1
efforts, the legislature didn't go along with the
2
State.
3
State would adopt a state open housing law.
4
had been a committee, legislative committee
5
studying it and the committee recommended adoption
6
and when that was turned down we wanted, our
7
commission wanted to move forward with deliberate
8
speed because there would be no state law.
9
10
We were hopeful that in March of 1967 the
There
[17:25]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
So clearly you feel that
11
having as members of the Human Relations
12
Commission kind of a diverse group of fairly
13
prominent, well-respected people gave them a
14
degree of credibility that they could take on kind
15
of more controversial issues that --
16
JUSTICE SIX:
Yes, definitely, because the
17
business community, I mean, Ship Winter's father,
18
Ship Winter, Sr., had been in the community since
19
the 1930s and in fact his grandson, Ship -- Wint
20
Winter, Jr., is the CEO of Peoples Bank and was a
21
state senator from Lawrence in this geographical
22
area and has been a leader in this community, so
23
the -- and then when Jim Owens joined the
24
commission, yes, I think the, that had a
25
substantial effect.
�17
1
2
[28:38]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
There was an observation
3
made, and I think it was by George, George
4
Caldwell, who I think was involved with the League
5
for the Promotion of Democracy, but in 1963, '64
6
he wrote that he thought that, in its earliest
7
period of existence that the Human Relations
8
Commission was viewed by some as being a little
9
bit disappointing in what they were able to
10
accomplish and he described as because of only
11
grudging acceptance of their role by the City
12
Commission.
13
and that they therefore had to kind of build up
14
rapport and a degree of credibility before they
15
could take on more difficult issues.
16
that's a fair assessment?
17
that way or is it difficult for you to say?
18
Do you have any sense that there's --
JUSTICE SIX:
Do you think
Would you have seen it
I don't know the name George
19
Caldwell, I don't recall it.
I may have met him.
20
But in reviewing materials, my correspondence, I
21
noticed that in 1965, I think, I wrote a letter as
22
secretary of the commission to Ray Wells, the city
23
manager, indicating that the commission was
24
interested in a series of questions concerning
25
opportunity in Lawrence and one of them was
�18
1
housing, but I was writing him as chair of the
2
subcommittee on employment opportunities and I was
3
asking on behalf of the commission for the city's
4
employment records on minority employment.
5
In 1964 Dr. WIlliam Bins, chairman of the
6
commission, wrote the mayor and the City
7
Commission outlining a whole series, housing,
8
education, employment, that we were headed into,
9
that we were looking into.
I had not any
10
experience with the commission before being asked
11
to join, I never appeared before it, nor in my law
12
practice did I have occasion to be involved with
13
it in any way or in my capacity just as a citizen.
14
One of the things we did do as a commission
15
on the swimming pool issue, finally the Jayhawk
16
Plunge owner, it was privately owned, shut it down
17
because there were pickets to open it up to
18
everyone, but it was a private business, so it was
19
closed and that left no pool at all, but in
20
Lawrence then were three, actually four brothers,
21
known as the Moore brothers.
22
Lawrence, Bud Moore, Al Moore, Mark Moore.
23
just died I think earlier this year, or Bob Moore.
24
Mark Moore, his brother, died many years ago.
25
They all grew up in
Mark
Bob Moore turned out to be quite a builder
�19
1
and his son is still active in the community, I
2
think chair of the library board, or has been, but
3
they were builders of houses and they would put --
4
they had built a, kind of a private club out where
5
Freddy's is at 23rd Street and Iowa and there was
6
a pool there and so our commission, it was really
7
a, kind of a push that we wanted to get something
8
open that the public could go to and the Moore
9
brothers stepped forward, just a total voluntary
10
act on their own, they didn't ask for any money,
11
and this was a small pool but they opened it up to
12
the public and the city, as I recall, furnished a
13
lifeguard or come up, came up with some money for
14
a lifeguard, and I think there was some
15
negotiation probably with the city attorney on
16
liability issues covering the Moore brothers, who
17
owned the pool, or one of their corporations, so
18
that was a bit like a lid on a tea kettle.
19
I mean, there was a feeling that a city like
20
Lawrence -- I mean, what city doesn't have a
21
public swimming pool?
22
mean, on and on, probably even Baldwin City had
23
one, or Eudora, I don't remember, but that was an
24
act that I applauded as an individual and we as a
25
commission.
Garden City, Leavenworth, I
�20
1
And then we started working with the city on
2
planning, it was primarily the city's
3
responsibility, and there was a recreational fund
4
bond opportunity and eventually the city acquired
5
its swimming pool.
6
7
[35:00]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Obviously with the city
8
doing that, with the fair housing ordinance being
9
passed, and then with some individual actions like
10
you've just described with the Moore brothers
11
people were stepping up and taking action but what
12
do you, what's your sense of in the years leading
13
up to that the, what were the main impediments to
14
bringing about change and starting to address some
15
of the discriminatory actions?
16
JUSTICE SIX:
The main -- public schools here
17
had no segregation except in the history there was
18
a black grade school called Lincoln School in
19
North Lawrence and so the public schools were
20
open, but it was the historical carryover from the
21
days of national segregation.
22
Lawrence and Kansas talks about the free
23
state.
We have a high school, we have a popular
24
restaurant/brewery, Free State, but actually
25
Kansas wasn't a haven for a negro or for an
�21
1
African-American.
2
but what opportunities did you have?
3
segregation was right under the surface and there
4
was always this call in the background of the New
5
Englander tradition, a call of outrage that this
6
shouldn't occur, but it was a lack of sensitivity
7
to the problem.
8
between the races.
9
You could not be a slave here
And
You didn't associate socially
The churches were segregated, and I think
10
generally still are today, and the
11
African-American church was a, a rich experience,
12
not in terms of overall opportunity but the church
13
was a, as I observed it, a supportive, nourishing
14
location where an African-American could go and so
15
an impediment was just the lack of sensitivity,
16
the fear of economic reprisal if you were a
17
restaurant owner, and of course that was broken by
18
Chancellor Murphy, Wilt Chamberlain, Phog Allen
19
bringing Wilt Chamberlain here, and those years
20
predated the famous national title basketball game
21
between North Carolina and K.U. was held in 1958
22
in Municipal Auditorium in Kansas City and the
23
game went into three overtimes and North Carolina
24
won the national championship.
25
Wilt then played '57, '58.
Kansas lost.
And
�22
1
So the restaurants began to open up, but
2
where would you spend the night if you were
3
traveling?
4
Why -- am I going to be the first one, a white
5
owner?
6
And there was just this sensitivity.
Am I going to lose money?
And then since there was no social mixing you
7
didn't get to know somebody from the other race
8
and as slowly as that changed with the Civil
9
Rights Act, with the ability, the natural ability
10
when it was given an opportunity to blossom, if it
11
was in debate or in chemistry or in literature, on
12
the athletic field, then students began to
13
associate, but I think, I've never taken any
14
particular pride in, oh, Lawrence was a -- I don't
15
think it stood out.
16
chest a little bit when it ought to go back to the
17
history book and see that discrimination was, was
18
the order of the day here until the '60s, although
19
school segregation was not an issue.
20
21
I think now it pumps its
[40:28]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
One of the things that,
22
that is impressive about Lawrence when you look
23
back at that period is that there were a fair
24
number of citizens kind of at the grassroot level
25
forming groups like the League for the Promotion
�23
1
of Democracy, the United Church Women, the Fair
2
Housing Coordinating Committee, who were trying to
3
tackle some of these problems.
4
motivated, you know, some people to step up and,
5
and try to address some of these forms of
6
discrimination, including the fair housing issue?
7
JUSTICE SIX:
What do you think
I think it was their
8
background.
They had come to Lawrence, they were
9
primarily, predominantly I would say connected
10
with the university.
11
put food on their table.
12
They had housing themselves.
13
at the university they had security in employment.
14
If they didn't have tenure they were within a
15
friendly community.
16
They had income adequate to
They were well educated.
If they had tenure
And I think then as the university began to
17
grow we noticed in Lawrence, and in my opinion one
18
of the really positive developments was the
19
development of the Jewish Community Center,
20
because with the development of a Jewish presence
21
in Lawrence there was I think a certain buoyancy
22
added to the arts, to equal opportunity in all
23
areas of life, and the recognition of
24
discrimination against Native Americans as well
25
began to be taken notice of, and I know the
�24
1
individuals who, for example at the swimming pool,
2
that was a group led by folks associated with the
3
university and after Franklin Murphy talked to
4
the, as reported, to the restaurant owners and
5
said you open up for everybody or I'll open a
6
restaurant on the campus, and the group began to
7
form.
8
9
It took a lot of leadership and initiative
but the individual business person who had a
10
family and depended, or the lawyer who practiced
11
law, who came in the door the next day and you
12
didn't have a paycheck in the mail and so I have
13
thought that fortunately we were in a university
14
community, and I think that would be borne out in
15
Iowa City, Boulder, Colorado, Stillwater,
16
Oklahoma, Lincoln, Nebraska.
17
interchange of ideas.
18
then they bring their values from elsewhere, so
19
they came from New England and from large cities
20
and said, "hey, this isn't fair."
21
The university is an
People come and speak and
Then we began also to observe intermarriage
22
among the races, and I think it was, I'm guessing
23
at a date, 1967 when the United States Supreme
24
Court struck down the Virginia miscegenation law.
25
I mean, think of that, 1967.
�25
1
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Yeah, it's not that long
ago really.
3
4
Right.
JUSTICE SIX:
No.
[44:41]
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Were you personally involved in
6
any of those types of organizations before?
7
know you interacted with them certainly when you
8
became a member of the Human Relations Commission,
9
but did you have any involvement with them before
10
I
that?
11
JUSTICE SIX:
No.
I -- let's look at them.
12
Church Women United I wouldn't have been eligible
13
for.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
JUSTICE SIX:
Right.
League of Women Voters, I was
16
never a member there, although they do permit men.
17
I had not heard of Richard Dulin and that group
18
[this refers to the Lawrence Fair Housing
19
Coordinating Committee].
20
have a note there on the group that picketed the
21
swimming pool.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
The, what was -- you may
The Lawrence League for the
23
Promotion of Democracy helped to coordinate that
24
effort.
25
JUSTICE SIX:
Yeah, yeah.
No.
�26
1
MR. ARNOLD:
How about through your church?
2
Some of the churches I know were very involved in
3
--
4
JUSTICE SIX:
Yes.
Church leaders were, were
5
involved and there were I think 22 churches that
6
lined up and Plymouth Church has through its
7
history always been a leader in, in the equal
8
opportunity, open doors for all citizens, but no,
9
I was not a member myself.
10
11
[46:08]
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
As you became a member of
12
the Human Relations Commission did you come on
13
board with any particular concerns about specific
14
aspects of discrimination or did you have any
15
personal goals of things you wanted to accomplish
16
or were you just looking to make whatever kind of
17
contribution that you could make to the group?
18
JUSTICE SIX:
No.
I joined as one to be
19
educated.
I didn't -- I felt housing was, we
20
shouldn't tolerate the current situation, but I, I
21
had, I, in reviewing the material, a news
22
clipping, I noticed I was quoted, appeared before
23
the City Commission several times, maybe three
24
times, and I was quoted in one, I don't
25
independently remember this, but in rebuttal to a
�27
1
question I said, according to that quote:
2
a family, a wife, two children.
3
where I want to live.
4
make a move, when I want to sell a house, when I
5
want to buy a house, and my skin is white.
6
why does the skin make the difference?
7
the credit report, the sort of color of the credit
8
report is relevant, is your credit good, if you're
9
going to borrow money.
10
I have
I can decide
I can decide when I want to
Why,
You know,
But -- so my hope here is
that everyone would have the opportunity I have.
11
And it was obvious that it was unfair, but I
12
was not a individual crusader out marching in the
13
streets and leading, carrying signs or anything
14
like that.
15
you know, any shining armor now 50 years later for
16
what I didn't do.
17
paid.
I certainly don't want to claim any,
I was hoping to get my mortgage
18
But I do think there is a, that once the
19
business community saw, once Mike Getto testified
20
as the manager and owner of the hotel, "well, you
21
know let's open this up," we -- and of course he
22
had to by '67 because of the fair housing, because
23
of the equal, the public accommodations and Civil
24
Rights Act.
25
[49:12]
�28
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I know the commission
2
had already had a committee or a subcommittee that
3
was looking at housing issues even before you all
4
took up the proposal for an ordinance so obviously
5
that was something of interest and of concern to
6
the commission.
7
involvement with organizations like the Fair
8
Housing Coordinating Committee that you're aware
9
of?
10
11
Were they, did they have prior
Were they coordinating their efforts or, you
know, sharing information?
JUSTICE SIX:
I don't have an independent --
12
I can't say the date or the time but looking at
13
the record, the minutes and my correspondence, for
14
example, in February of 1967 the Lawrence
15
Journal-World ran a series of articles, one right
16
after another, in early February.
17
The first one was written by the Human
18
Relations Commission and the opening sentence of
19
that article was, the title of the article, the
20
headline was:
21
Housing in Lawrence, and the opening line was:
22
Mayor John Weatherwax was asked in 1960, if he'd
23
have been asked in 1960 if Lawrence had a race
24
problem he would have said no but if I, that is,
25
the mayor, was asked today, 1966, I would say yes.
Commission Created to Look at
�29
1
And that article went on to document where
2
African-Americans had been restricted, so we had
3
been studying that, working with the NAACP.
4
The second article was written by the NAACP,
5
the third article by E. Jackson Bauer, who was a
6
Professor of Sociology at K.U. looking at
7
segregated housing from a sociologist's viewpoint,
8
the fourth article by Bob Casad of the K.U. Law
9
School writing about Brown v. The Board of
10
11
Education, that education was up but not housing.
And the last one by R. Reinhold Schmidt, Jr.,
12
a reverend, Presbyterian minister who was on the
13
faculty of the K.U. School of Religion, and he
14
wrote about how open housing opportunities would
15
benefit other areas of one's life and the
16
community, so we were hearing of these examples,
17
and of course two members of the commission,
18
Mrs. Wallace and Mr. Spearman, were
19
African-Americans and so they were echoing or
20
talking about the difficulties of housing, but I
21
don't, I don't have -- I haven't refreshed my
22
memory about the minutes in 1964.
23
some in '65, '66, but primarily '67.
24
25
I limited it to
But when we started after that January 4,
1967, meeting and resolved to draft an ordinance
�30
1
we really, we really went to work on it in
2
earnest.
3
4
[53:25]
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall in, I believe it
5
was in June of '66 you wrote a memo to I think it
6
was William Binns, who I think then was still the
7
chairman of the Human Relations Commission, and
8
you told him that you had reached out to the real
9
estate association to try and meet to talk about
10
fair housing issues and reading between the lines
11
you basically said they kind of rebuffed me, they
12
weren't particularly interested in sitting down
13
unless we had some very specific things to talk
14
about and they didn't want to just talk generally
15
about real estate practices.
16
led to you making that effort and, and --
17
JUSTICE SIX:
Do you recall what
Well, I have the letter in my
18
file and I have read it couple of times recently.
19
Bill Binns was chairman and he obviously asked me
20
to make the contact because he was at the faculty,
21
I was practicing law here and I worked with the
22
realtors, or our firm worked with the realtors
23
week in, week out, with somebody on the realtor
24
board, and I wrote the letter to Bill Womack,
25
probably because he was appointed by the realtors
�31
1
along with another realtor, Ken Vinyard, to be a
2
subcommittee, and according to my letter, we had
3
as a commission met with them sometime earlier and
4
so we hadn't heard anything more from them and
5
this was outreach on our part saying, because
6
we're now gearing up for this, to get ready the
7
next year moving into the ordinance, can't we meet
8
and work out some specifics, and we were hoping to
9
sit down and see what their real complaints were,
10
what their feelings were, and see if by some
11
accommodation we could work with them, and then he
12
-- there was a phone call, and my letter
13
memorializes the phone conversation, and he said,
14
"Well, what do you want to talk about
15
specifically?
16
We've already met with you once."
Well, that's a legitimate point of view, and
17
I said, "Well, I don't have any specific, we just,
18
I wondered if we couldn't get together again."
19
And he said, "Well, it's a busy time of year for
20
us and Ken Vinyard and I, if you have something
21
specific you want to talk about, why, let us know
22
what the specifics are, but we don't want to take
23
the time now just to have another meeting."
24
25
And having the advantage now of many years on
many committees and many meetings I, I, I think
�32
1
it's well if you're going to meet to have an, have
2
an agenda.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
4
JUSTICE SIX:
So I think that was the
5
background and so I was giving, I was reporting to
6
the chairman, and I like to record phone
7
conversations right after -- I don't mean record
8
them for audio but I mean get the letter out to
9
memorialize them so that the record is there and
10
with the passage of time you don't forget what was
11
said and so forth.
12
13
[57:05]
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Jumping ahead a little bit
14
to the period when you were actually drafting the
15
ordinance, was there any interaction then with the
16
real estate community as you all were drafting it
17
to try and get input from them or thoughts from
18
them or did you just --
19
JUSTICE SIX:
20
No.
I don't recall any --
well, Glenn Kappelman --
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Was a real estate --
22
JUSTICE SIX:
-- was a member of the
23
commission and he was a really, really fine
24
person.
25
He was trusted.
He had a successful real estate practice.
He, the university community,
�33
1
when a new member would be coming to the law
2
faculty or to political science somebody in the
3
department would be on the phone with the new,
4
say, hey, you're going need a realtor, look up
5
Glenn Kappelman, and he was, he, his name defined
6
integrity, honesty, fair dealing, and so he, we
7
had an input into the community and he and I would
8
talk and he, I don't remember anything
9
specifically but we'd run things by him and with
10
that sort of turndown from our invitation we just
11
proceeded.
12
13
[58:48]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Well, obviously, as
14
you've mentioned, you played a, or as the record
15
shows, you played kind of the key central role in
16
drafting the ordinance.
17
like the Iowa City and other, other cities'
18
ordinances as a model.
19
that responsibility and who do you recall
20
collaborated with you on that effort?
21
JUSTICE SIX:
I know you used things
How did you end up with
Mrs. Keltz, Dorothy Keltz was
22
chairman of the housing subcommittee, I've
23
refreshed my memory from the minutes on that, and
24
she made a call to a gentleman in Iowa City who
25
was on their Human Relations Commission and talked
�34
1
with him.
2
presume because I was the only attorney member of
3
the commission and I had worked, I'd been an
4
assistant attorney general and then while I was,
5
the early months of practice in Lawrence, private
6
practice, I continued working for the Revisor of
7
Statutes in Topeka helping draft legislation for
8
legislators and I'd work over there on the
9
weekends, which as a young struggling lawyer added
10
11
I don't remember why I was asked, I
a little, a little change to my livelihood.
So I had they probably thought the experience
12
and I had a secretary and I had an office, and
13
then on help, I've talked with Professor Robert
14
Casad, Bob Casad, who now resides up at
15
Presbyterian Manor, and I believe you're going to
16
interview him.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
JUSTICE SIX:
Yes, we are.
And he had some memory of
19
copying some other ordinances.
I had no
20
independent recollection of that but when I
21
started through the files I saw that he'd written
22
one of the articles for the Journal-World and I
23
saw that he'd appeared on January 4th, 1967, and
24
had spoken, so I called him back again and
25
refreshed his memory, so when you interview him
�35
1
he'll hopefully be aware of that.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
JUSTICE SIX:
Good.
So then when I ran across this
4
little item that, as a commission item of
5
authorizing me to reimburse him for $6.00 of
6
copying expense, why, I knew that he'd copied,
7
because there was no internet then and you'd have
8
to go to a statute book or an ordinance book of
9
the city and find it and put it in a copier and
10
copy it, entirely different than you do today.
11
You just go online and boom, you'd have it today.
12
So I have no independent memory of -- but
13
it's bolstered, my recall's bolstered by the
14
record, refreshed.
15
On the actual language, I think we, I noticed
16
that the City Commission asked questions.
For
17
example, Mayor Raney asked about the definition of
18
race, gender, et cetera, and creed, what does
19
creed mean.
20
presentation so then I went back and prepared
21
memoranda and suggested that we look to the State
22
of Kansas, which has a definition for
23
discriminatory practice, and take creed out and
24
any time the Kansas Supreme Court were to
25
interpret the State law it would be helpful,
That came up when we made our
�36
1
because our definition would be the same.
2
Well, that's lawyering.
I mean, that's the
3
kind of thing a lawyer is trained to do, but I was
4
working with Mrs. Keltz, Glenn Kappelman, and
5
bringing all these, bringing this up, these drafts
6
up to the commission itself in March and early
7
April, February, March, and early April, and then
8
the subcommittee had a draft to recommend, the
9
commission went along with it, and then each
10
commissioner, I remember just by looking at the
11
record that there were several questions from the
12
commission indicating that they had read it
13
carefully when we first presented it and then we
14
presented a flow chart so that if we had the
15
opening introduction for our ordinance they could
16
refer to other cities' and we listed 53 cities in
17
18 states, and the idea was to try to be
18
efficacious and persuasive so that the
19
commissioners could go across and see that we
20
weren't doing anything -- we wanted them to have a
21
comfort level and if we could give them a comfort
22
level, then they would not be out all alone doing
23
something no other city had done.
24
25
[1:05:02]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
That leads me to my next
�37
1
question actually.
I was going to ask if you all
2
had kind of strategized before you formally
3
presented the ordinance to the City Commission as
4
to how you would present it in ways that would
5
make them more comfortable with it or more
6
receptive and did you feel pretty confident right
7
from the beginning that this ordinance would pass?
8
JUSTICE SIX:
I don't have a memory of a
9
feeling of confidence.
I have a memory of a
10
feeling of energized commitment, which personally
11
I was energized as Ship Winter became interested
12
and energized and Glenn Kappelman and Mrs. Wallace
13
and Reverend Steffen and Jim Owens and we, we all
14
supported each other, we respected each other, and
15
I think we felt we had a good team and a good
16
presentation and that we would be successful.
17
I think we had a feeling that the realtors,
18
the realty board was, that time had passed them
19
by, and they were the only opponents.
20
there was no landlords association or, I don't
21
know, who might have been an opponent, homeowners
22
association.
23
I mean,
And I mentioned, well, I haven't mentioned
24
today, but the ordinance, we drafted it, and the
25
City Commission took notice of this, so that it
�38
1
didn't apply to a church.
If a church owned a
2
house and rented it they could rent to whomever,
3
they could -- to your own home, if you had I think
4
four or fewer rooms.
5
wife could have a large home and you could rent
6
rooms to students and you could rent up to four
7
rooms and the ordinance didn't apply, or it didn't
8
apply to duplexes, but now if you had a large home
9
and you had six rooms renting out, then the
In other words, you and your
10
reasoning was you're, now you're really operating
11
a housing business.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
JUSTICE SIX:
Right.
So we had the argument, of
14
course, with a rhetorical question, "where's the
15
rub?"
I mean, what's, what's the problem with
16
this?
And the ordinance then passed, with five on
17
the commission, four to one.
18
19
[1:08:12]
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall when the
20
commission held hearings they held separate
21
hearings for -- the proponents appeared at one and
22
the opponents at another one.
23
of a standard practice or was it merely a time
24
management thing or was there some reason they
25
didn't want the opponents and the proponents
Was, was that kind
�39
1
2
appearing at the same time?
JUSTICE SIX:
No, I think it was use, good
3
use of the Commission's time.
4
Tuesday commission meetings so they put it on the
5
agenda, put the ordinance on the agenda, there was
6
wide publicity, and the first time they would
7
listen -- they had other business as well.
8
were not separate commission hearings just for
9
fair housing.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
JUSTICE SIX:
They had regular
These
Okay.
Fair housing was the dominant
12
item on the agenda but there were the, you know,
13
honoring somebody for this day or that day,
14
recognizing the Cub Scouts, all the things that
15
the City Commission does, and then they'd come to
16
item two or nine or whatever it was and they'd
17
have the proponents, and then the next week they
18
had the opponents, and I noticed in reading the
19
press reports that the realtors, the realtors'
20
spokesman, not their lawyer but their spokesman,
21
said that he really wasn't as prepared as he'd
22
like to be and so the mayor said, well, we'll hold
23
it over another week and you can have an
24
opportunity fully to voice your objections.
25
And then that occurred along in, in the next
�40
1
week along in late June, early July, and then the
2
opponents raised questions on vagueness, First
3
Amendment, interference, interference with the
4
right of contract, and so then the city gave us
5
the opportunity to rebuttal and we came back the
6
third time, and, as I recall, they opened it up
7
then if anybody had anything else to say in
8
opposition as well, but that third time, according
9
to the press reports, and I have noticed I
10
prepared written submissions in rebuttal on those
11
points for each commissioner, and then it was put
12
on the what's called first reading, and that maybe
13
was early July, and then the mayor, Dick Raney,
14
signed it July the 20th and it became the
15
ordinance of the city.
16
17
[1:11:16]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Could you elaborate on
18
the three points of objection that the realtors
19
had, what the, kind of the substance or the nature
20
of those objections were?
21
JUSTICE SIX:
Yes.
First as to vagueness,
22
there is an axiom tenet in the law that any law
23
that has a criminal sanction, whether it be a
24
fine, imprisonment, cannot be vague, it must be so
25
specific that the one charged knows when embarking
�41
1
on that activity that it will be a violation.
2
There cannot be ambiguity in, for example, take
3
parking.
4
or No Parking after 6:00 p.m. do you mean Central
5
Standard Time or Daylight Time or what time, or
6
what is sundown?
7
When you mark No Parking After Sundown
So you say No Parking after 8:00 p.m. and
8
that's whatever -- if it's 8:00 p.m. in the city
9
of Lawrence and you're there after 8:00 p.m. and
10
you get a ticket you cannot go very far with the
11
municipal judge saying that's vague, I didn't know
12
when 8:00 p.m. was, but if you said No Parking
13
After Sundown there might be an argument, well, on
14
Tuesday on the 31st of May was the sun down when
15
you gave me -- so that's vagueness, and the
16
counter to that was to show that there were 53
17
cities and 18 states that had had similar language
18
and discrimination was spelled out and if you --
19
you come to a point where the public good balances
20
out the vagueness.
21
The ordinance was structured so that if there
22
was a complaint of a violation it was investigated
23
by our commission and then it went to an
24
arbitration to see if it couldn't be resolved and
25
then ultimately it went to the city attorney, who
�42
1
would take it into municipal court.
2
I will be interested in knowing if Lawrence ever
3
had a case that went that far.
4
one.
5
I don't know,
I'm not aware of
The argument about the first, interference
6
with contract was that you have a right to sell to
7
whoever you wish to sell to, but there are of
8
course limitations on one's right when it is
9
balanced against the general good, like blending
10
with free speech.
11
the standard canard on that is you can't yell
12
"fire" in a crowded theater and say, well, that's
13
free speech.
14
to limitation as well, and the overall public good
15
of having open housing did not affect you
16
economically.
17
who had a poor credit rating.
18
You don't have a right to yell,
So the right to contract is subject
You didn't have to sell to someone
On the freedom of speech argument, I thought
19
that was the weaker of the three, but it was
20
simply that speech is broad, it isn't just oral
21
speech but it blends with my right to sell or to
22
rent my property to whoever I -- if you tell me I
23
cannot rent to somebody, then that impinges on my
24
overall individual right to express myself.
25
[1:15:55]
�43
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
What do you think it was
2
that ultimately swayed the City Commission to pass
3
the ordinance four to one?
4
JUSTICE SIX:
I think they were men of good
5
will.
6
them, Don Metzler, was a professor of engineering
7
at K.U.
8
while this was pending, I didn't think that was
9
appropriate or needed.
10
They were successful individuals.
One of
I didn't talk to any of them individually
I knew, I knew them all.
I knew some -- Dick Raney was closer to my
11
age and so we were personally acquainted.
12
aware of his sympathies towards equality for all
13
because I had heard him talk, I mean just in his,
14
just as friends talk, and so I was pleased that he
15
was the mayor and I think he, if somebody wants to
16
dish out some credit 50 years hence, why, he's an
17
individual that should receive a blue ribbon.
18
But Jim Black was a builder.
I was
He was involved
19
with the building community.
Clark Morton had a
20
building blocks company.
21
the -- Mitt Allen was the city attorney.
22
he was -- he was the son of Phog Allen and
23
intimately involved with the basketball program so
24
I think, I always thought, well, we had a friend
25
and a sympathetic ear there.
They were -- and I think
I think
�44
1
And I think it was, in Lawrence generally it
2
was an idea whose time had arrived.
3
it was any great, for a minute any -- I don't
4
think we persuaded any vote.
5
we gave them -- they were coming to the table and
6
we just provided a meal that hopefully they found
7
palatable.
8
9
I don't think
I think we enabled,
[1:18:34]
MR. ARNOLD:
That's a great way to put it.
10
Do you recall, I think there was a press report,
11
one of the articles in the Journal-World that in
12
late June described a meeting at John Emick's home
13
between the city attorney, I think other city
14
commissioners, in which there was discussion of
15
modifying the ordinance to have, have fair housing
16
complaints go directly to the city attorney rather
17
than to the, through the Human Relations
18
Commission.
19
involved and was that kind of an unusual thing do
20
you think to have kind of a private closed meeting
21
like that to discuss --
22
JUSTICE SIX:
23
Do you recall that meeting?
Were you
I'm not familiar with that
story, nor was I involved with that meeting --
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
JUSTICE SIX:
Okay.
-- and I have no independent,
�45
1
no recollection at all of that.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
JUSTICE SIX:
Okay.
If that -- I'd be interested in
4
reading that clipping if at some time you have it
5
and I could, because this is, you're telling me
6
something I was not aware of.
7
8
9
[1:19:31]
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Sure.
We can take a look
at that afterwards.
10
I have two or three questions regarding the
11
substance of the ordinance that Scott Wagner had
12
wanted me to bring up with you.
13
First of all, was -- the ordinance called
14
for, besides potentially a hundred dollar fine, up
15
to 30 days in jail for a violation.
16
controversial?
17
jail time, although I know many of the other city
18
ordinances had similar stipulations in it, but was
19
there any pushback on, on that kind of, that form
20
of punishment?
21
Was that
Did people view the potential of
JUSTICE SIX:
Not that I'm, not that I recall
22
at all, nobody raised that question.
I think that
23
was, you know, that was the end of the line and it
24
perhaps was discussed in the vagueness argument
25
made by the attorney for the realtors.
The
�46
1
attorney was a gentleman Don Hults, who was a
2
state senator from this district, and he was a
3
fine man and our law office was, you know, right
4
down the hall from his, though he may have alluded
5
to that in his argument on vagueness, but I have
6
no recollection of the penalty.
7
8
9
[1:21:01]
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Do you recall why you all
decided to include an anti-blockbusting clause in
10
the Lawrence ordinance?
11
some cities had that but small minority.
12
there particular concerns that that could be a
13
problem in Lawrence or was it just something you
14
all added for thoroughness?
15
JUSTICE SIX:
Because that was not -Was
I respond to that this way.
I
16
have had no recollection of that before embarking
17
on reading through all the material of 50 years
18
ago, and I did come across, of course, our flow
19
chart and my remarks to the City Commission that
20
the blockbusting ordinance was taken from Wichita.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
JUSTICE SIX:
Uh-huh.
And I probably said that,
23
telling them where it was from, so it would --
24
they'd say, oh, well, if Wichita has -- but
25
blockbusting was in the news then and you may have
�47
1
seen, you may have seen the movie or the play
2
Raisin in the Sun, the Lawrence, Theater Lawrence
3
put that on last year and then a sequel to it in a
4
fascinating group of characters 50 years later in
5
the same Chicago area, but blockbusting was a term
6
that -- and I, I'm just trying to put some reason
7
to it now, but no independent recollection.
8
can't tell you we said, oh, we need a
9
blockbusting, that since that was part of the
I
10
fabric of open housing we reached out, saw that
11
Wichita had it, put it in.
12
13
[1:23:05]
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Kind of in the
14
introduction to the ordinance there was a
15
statement, is a statement that says:
16
Lawrence is a center of culture whose democratic
17
principles are being constantly observed by
18
foreign students and visitors from all over the
19
world."
20
21
22
"The City of
Do you recall who added that and why it was
added?
JUSTICE SIX:
No.
I'll give you a couple of
23
places, maybe a couple of thoughts.
Lawrence had
24
the ordinance creating the Human Relations
25
Commission and that ordinance became law in 1961
�48
1
and was signed by Mayor Dr. Ted Kennedy and it may
2
be that that was the prologue, that was some
3
language from the ordinance creating the Human
4
Relations Commission.
5
The second thought on that language is that
6
on January 4, 1967, during this crowded meeting of
7
the Human Relations Commission when we had 56
8
observers one of them was a lady, I think Louise
9
Lane, who spoke about working with foreign student
10
families and graduate student families and foreign
11
faculty families and trying, when someone would
12
come who was from Africa or from a geographical
13
location where the indigenous population was other
14
than white, coming to the university and she'd
15
encountered difficulty and she was sharing with us
16
her difficulty in working with those groups,
17
trying to explain to them why, why you just
18
couldn't go in and move in and so forth, so it
19
might have tied to that experience, or it might
20
have just been self-, a little self-polish that I
21
think every city that makes a proclamation
22
probably starts out about, you know, the sort of
23
boosterism that goes on with a whereas such and
24
such and whereas such and such.
25
[1:25:52]
�49
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I just wondered if it
2
might have come from some influence of the
3
university because I know if you read the, and you
4
probably have the letter that Vice Chancellor
5
Surface sent in support of the fair housing
6
ordinance and that Ted Owens, which you read the
7
other night, both of them talked about, you know,
8
concern for Lawrence's image in attempting to
9
recruit foreign students, recruit diverse faculty,
10
recruit basketball players, and so that kind of
11
gets, falls into that category of being concerned
12
about what Lawrence's image is.
13
JUSTICE SIX:
I was not aware of Vice
14
Chancellor Surface's letter.
I'm sure I saw it 50
15
years ago but it wasn't in the packet of -- what I
16
did was I about five years ago, the Spencer
17
Research Library at K.U. contacted me and had an
18
interest in my papers, files, so I spent a summer
19
after I retired sanitizing and making sure that
20
there was no confidence that would be revealed and
21
included in that group was my file as secretary of
22
the Fair Housing Commission and so I turned that
23
over to the Spencer and so what I had, due to the
24
gracious acts of Scott Wagner, who went up and
25
copied my file and then presented it to me and
�50
1
that's what I've reviewed and in there I didn't
2
see the Surface letter, but that would have been
3
certainly in the kit or the brochure that we
4
presented to the city.
5
6
[1:27:42]
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
You've already mentioned
7
Dick Raney having played kind of a key role in the
8
passage of the ordinance.
9
specific individuals who really stand out in your
Were there any other
10
mind now that kind of played prominent or
11
important roles in making this, bringing this to
12
fruition?
13
JUSTICE SIX:
I think Glenn Kappelman, being
14
a realtor with a prominent firm, Calvin, Eddy and
15
Kappelman, and I'm just reading between the lines,
16
but if I'd been a city commissioner and I see
17
Glenn Kappelman there, a realtor, successful
18
realtor that doesn't have any problem with this
19
ordinance what's -- I think his presence was
20
helpful.
21
And again, I've mentioned Jim Owens, Mike
22
Getto, and Ship Winter appearing and they would be
23
maybe having, maybe going to Rotary the next day
24
and city commissioners would be Rotarians or be in
25
the Kiwanis or be in a church group or something
�51
1
and, and Mrs. Wallace, the chairman of the
2
commission, was so well spoken and I think well
3
thought of.
4
So, and I'd have to mention Mrs. Keltz was
5
prominent in the community as well.
She grew up
6
in Lawrence.
7
the long-time refuse, or we called it the
8
junkyard, and as a Boy Scout our troop used to go
9
down there and sell paper during World War II.
10
We'd collect newspapers and take them down to
11
Mr. Cohen and Mr. Cohen's staff, so the Keltz
12
family, Mr. Keltz was in business here.
13
business on Massachusetts Street and she was
14
active in mental health and in things like the
15
food bank.
Her father was Mr. Cohen that had
He had a
She was just a prominent individual.
16
And then the Williams tie-in with the
17
university and with the community generally, and
18
with the city, because at that time above the City
19
Hall on the top floor, that's where the Williams
20
boys had their office, because their father had
21
been the chauffeur for Mrs. Elizabeth Watkins and,
22
while their father was a student at K.U., and then
23
when Mrs. Watkins inherited all her wealth
24
Mr. Williams was her farm manager and executor of
25
her estate and part of the agreement with the city
�52
1
was to have their office so the Williams folks
2
were right, right above or where the City
3
Commission was meeting.
4
[1:31:12]
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Do you have a sense at
6
the time that the ordinance was being considered
7
by the commission and then once it was passed that
8
there was fairly broad-based community support for
9
the measure?
10
JUSTICE SIX:
I would think so.
I don't --
11
I'm persuaded by the exhibits you had Monday
12
night, or Scott Wagner did, of the photocopies of
13
986 names in the paper, pretty persuasive.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
JUSTICE SIX:
Right.
And then another hundred in
16
another ad that didn't get in in time, and I, what
17
I don't recall is any arbitrations or any
18
complaints specifically that we dealt with, but I
19
don't have any record to refresh my memory.
20
think it just, everybody went to work the next day
21
and that was, that was it.
22
23
I
[1:32:22]
MR. ARNOLD:
I know in the late 1960s and
24
early '70s following the passage of the Fair
25
Housing Ordinance there was some racial unrest in
�53
1
Lawrence, and some of it violent, but do you feel
2
that the ordinance, along with, you know, the
3
changing practices of the businesses and public
4
accommodation, that over time have you seen, and
5
obviously we, improvement needs to be continuous,
6
but did you get a sense over time that Lawrence
7
made important changes in eliminating
8
discriminatory practices?
9
know, the Civil Rights Act and the Fair Housing
10
Act at the federal level played a role as well,
11
but do you feel like the community made
12
substantive observable changes that you felt
13
reflected well on the community over time?
14
JUSTICE SIX:
And obviously, you
The changes were made and at my
15
anecdotal observation they were precipitated
16
primarily by the quality and ability of black
17
athletes and the support of the university for the
18
athletic program.
19
were hired who were African-Americans and their
20
salaries were published and they were in relation
21
to others in Lawrence rather robust, they were,
22
they were purchasing housing I think anywhere they
23
wanted to, and then Danny Manning's father was
24
hired as an assistant coach.
25
Lawrence High School and he was a popular student
I think when assistant coaches
Danny came to
�54
1
and of course an exemplary athlete, individual,
2
now he's a head coach at Wake Forest.
3
I think another influence that ought to be
4
mentioned, hasn't so far, the name just occurred
5
to me, and that would be Bob Billings, now
6
deceased.
7
Bob Billings was a contemporary of Wilt
8
Chamberlain's and played basketball for K.U.
9
grew up in Russell, Kansas, and he was a
We have a parkway named after him, but
He
10
preeminent business person here.
11
Alvamar Golf Course, Alvamar Homes, Alvamar Tennis
12
Center, contributed to the university and was just
13
an open-hearted, gracious individual who would not
14
tolerate for one split second any arbitrary
15
exclusion on the basis of one's race or religion
16
and I think he, I think his influence was
17
significant.
18
He developed
I can't evaluate or measure what our work
19
did.
Some observer who's studied the situation
20
could be more objective about that.
21
work permitted some African-American family, or
22
some minority family, to have an opportunity that
23
they might not otherwise have had, but I think
24
the, Chancellor Murphy, the Surface letter, by
25
1967 Dr. Murphy had gone on from here because he
I hope our
�55
1
left here in about I'd say 1960 and went out to
2
UCLA as president there and Dr. Wescoe came as
3
chancellor, who would have had the same feeling
4
about university and equal opportunity for all its
5
students, but I'm glad I thought of Bob Billings
6
in this context.
7
8
9
[1:37:41]
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
As you've mentioned, you
were in 1987 appointed to the Kansas Court of
10
Appeals and a year later to a seat as a justice on
11
the Kansas Supreme Court.
12
experiences on the Human Relations Commission and
13
in seeking to address civil rights issues in
14
Lawrence in the 1960s in any way influenced your
15
judicial perspectives?
16
JUSTICE SIX:
Would you say your
Issues of race per se in the
17
years that I was on the State Supreme Court would
18
have been federal issues.
19
through HUD or up through the Federal Civil Rights
20
Act, Public Accommodations Act.
21
any housing case that the court considered while I
22
was on the court.
They would have gone
I don't recall
23
I do recall from reading cases in the past an
24
early Kansas Supreme Court case, maybe back in the
25
1920s, which might have been out of Pittsburg,
�56
1
Kansas, that had to do with employment, maybe by a
2
school, school board.
3
It might have been a gender discrimination, but
4
for -- but then the associations that one has
5
wherever you are have some affect on your
6
personality and your thinking and, I think like
7
osmosis, just, you can't tell when it comes in or
8
when it comes out of what makes up your thinking
9
or your perspective on applying the facts of the
10
case and the law, because that's what judges are
11
to do, not their own personal viewpoint, what they
12
think, how they think, how it ought to be decided,
13
but what makes you an individual is really all of
14
the associations you have had through your
15
lifetime leading to the bench.
16
I'm a little vague here.
And I remember specifically a meeting on
17
housing held in Manhattan at Kansas State
18
University and Mrs. Wallace and I were delegates
19
from our commission so I said to her, "Mayzelma,"
20
we were on a first name basis, "why don't I come
21
by and pick you up and we'll go over?"
22
remember picking her up and how lovely she looked
23
and how well she spoke and how proud I was of her
24
being a colleague in Lawrence.
25
of the program and there were people from all over
And I
She had some part
�57
1
the state.
2
And so that type of association, I couldn't
3
identify a time or a moment, but I certainly had a
4
point of view of equality for all, but I think
5
that was with me early on from my, from my
6
parents.
7
again, I referred earlier in my remarks, why
8
wasn't I in the principal's office at Lawrence
9
High School demanding that blacks be permitted to
We had no -- yet having said that,
10
play basketball?
11
just a lack of sensitivity.
12
And I can't answer that.
It was
[1:42:18]
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Reflecting back now on the role
14
you played on the Human Relations Commission, what
15
would you say you were most proud of?
16
JUSTICE SIX:
Oh, I think the work on the
17
housing ordinance and the work the commission did
18
in preparing it, also the work, part of
19
arbitrating through the swimming pool crisis, but
20
the housing ordinance would stand out.
21
22
[1:42:54]
MR. ARNOLD:
In thinking back on that time
23
frame in your life and on what was going on not
24
only in Lawrence but in the country, what do you
25
think we can do today to kind of instill in young
�58
1
people an understanding and appreciation for that
2
time and an appreciation for how important the
3
struggle of African-Americans to achieve equality
4
really was and how that legacy can be carried over
5
today in struggles that we're still facing in
6
other areas of inequality?
7
JUSTICE SIX:
I have some views on that.
I
8
think the City of Lawrence, the Churches United,
9
any -- the Chamber of Commerce, the economic
10
development, needs to look at minority families
11
and single parent families.
12
I have four grandchildren.
If they need to
13
go to soccer practice we don't have any trouble
14
getting them there.
15
around, although I'm seldom called on, but we need
16
to give children opportunities so that the working
17
mother with three children, how is she going to
18
get the child to an enrichment program at 7:30 in
19
the evening at the library?
20
They have two parents and I'm
The law faculty professor and her husband,
21
they can, they say, "Okay, Sadie, we're going to
22
go down to a special reading program; hurry up and
23
finish dinner, jump in the car and away we go."
24
But that single mother in a minority family, maybe
25
one of the children is a toddler.
Who's going to
�59
1
2
be at home while she drives?
And I think a community really could stand
3
out in America if it formed a commission of
4
credible individuals from various sectors of the
5
community that the committee had gravitas, when it
6
spoke it had people that would be taken notice,
7
and that community came through with grants.
8
we write grants?
9
provide trans -- the elderly can call and get
Can we get money?
10
transportation.
11
about the parents of the toddlers?
12
Can
Can we
What about the toddlers?
What
Because to me the root is education and
13
opportunity and you're not going to be a first
14
chair clarinetist if you don't have the
15
opportunity to get to the lessons, and sure the
16
school, when you get to middle school the school
17
will give you a clarinet or whatever you want but
18
it takes more than that.
19
So that is my thought, to give opportunity to
20
the children of Lawrence through implementing the
21
opportunity.
22
recreation center, but if the minority children
23
can't get to it or the low income.
You can build a Rock Chalk Park, the
24
Monday night at the meeting you and I
25
attended one of the audience raised a question
�60
1
about affordable housing, who is a disabled woman,
2
paid 850 a month rent and had a total check a
3
month of 1250 or something.
Well, that opened my
4
eyes to affordable housing.
And I understand the
5
city's working on that, but if we don't have
6
affordable housing, then the children growing up
7
don't have that opportunity, so education and the
8
opportunity for education and enrichment of arts,
9
sport, gives the child confidence, brings all
10
children together.
11
would be my answer.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
They grow and that's, that
Great.
Well, Justice Six, thank
13
you very much.
14
to sit down with you and have you answer a lot of
15
questions and we went for quite some time but I
16
think it was quite worthwhile and I appreciate
17
your perspectives.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
This was a wonderful opportunity
JUSTICE SIX:
Thank you.
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Six, Fred N.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Honorable Fred N. Six
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Fred N. Six, who was the secretary of the Lawrence Human Relations Commission at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 6, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
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Six, Fred N.
Source
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Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
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City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/5/2016
Contributor
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Arnold, Tom
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This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
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<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/fred-six-interview-10052016?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>Click <a href="https://youtu.be/ig6wu13h6tY">here</a> to view the video recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
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PDF
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SixInterview100616.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
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Lawrence (Kan.)
1950 - 1967
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/8d8fac783ec6b037fa32122d1824f8e9.pdf
4eeeb7c47e6042f6fa989daeb7c5b052
PDF Text
Text
1
1
2
CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
3
4
LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
5
50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
6
7
8
9
10
11
Interview of Homer Floyd
12
November 22, 2016
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�2
1
(10:55:14)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is November 22nd, 2016.
I
3
am historian Tom Arnold interviewing Mr. Homer
4
Floyd at his home in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, for
5
the City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th
6
Anniversary Oral History Project.
7
At the time the ordinance passed in July,
8
1967, Mr. Floyd was the director of the Kansas
9
State Commission on Civil Rights.
10
To start off, how would you describe the City
11
of Lawrence at the time you arrived there in the
12
mid to late 1950s as a K.U. student athlete, and
13
in particular what were your memories of the
14
racial atmosphere in Lawrence at the time?
15
MR. FLOYD:
Well, first of all let me say
16
that I was delighted to have the opportunity to
17
come to Lawrence to play football and get an
18
education at the University of Kansas and it has
19
certainly grounded me as it relates to my future
20
career and opportunities, but I think that some of
21
the experiences that we had of a racial nature
22
certainly helped to motivate me to want to see
23
opportunities available for all people as opposed
24
to just some.
25
When we came there my recollection is, first
�3
1
of all, that there were certain restaurants we
2
could not eat at as African-Americans.
3
three theaters that I remember.
4
the balcony in two of the theaters and the other
5
theater didn't have a balcony so we had to start
6
filling up the theater from the back rows forward.
7
We had difficulty with housing, and certainly many
8
of the students off-campus housing,
9
African-Americans, they had difficulty.
There were
We had to sit in
10
Some of my counterparts explained that they
11
have had difficulties in the classroom with some
12
teachers and professors.
I don't think that I had
13
that kind of experience.
What I do remember is a
14
couple of the professors would tease us, the
15
football players, and basketball players as well,
16
about getting a free ride and, you know, things
17
like that, but my recollection of K.U. was very
18
positive.
19
Certainly the experience we had as it relates
20
to some of those incidents, though, we found out
21
that the track players had some of those
22
experiences, the basketball players, as well as
23
the football players, and it is in that context
24
that we decided to go to the chancellor and to
25
express our indignation and our concerns, both in
�4
1
the city as well as when we played TCU in 1957 in
2
Fort Worth, Texas, after we had left Lawrence and
3
we found that the African-American players were
4
going to have to stay at a separate hotel, and
5
that was troublesome.
6
as to whether to play or not and I know that at
7
first I was not going to play but coach pulled me
8
aside and talked with me and I finally decided to
9
go ahead with it, but that was a major experience,
10
11
We had to make a decision
I think, that we looked at.
But in the '50s there was just a lot of
12
racial segregation and this was just after the
13
Brown v. Board of Education and society was just
14
getting used to the fact that segregation was
15
illegal, but that's kind of what I remember about
16
the period.
17
(11:00:00)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Great.
How would you say
19
that your impressions of Lawrence differed from
20
the experiences you had where you grew up in Ohio?
21
Was there a greater degree of segregation or were
22
you surprised when you got to Lawrence in what you
23
found there, particularly given that Lawrence kind
24
of had this reputation to be the front -- center
25
of the free state movement from the Civil War era?
�5
1
MR. FLOYD:
We were surprised.
My
2
recollection, first of all, in Massilon, Ohio,
3
that was a steel mill town and a high percentage
4
of African-Americans and other minorities were
5
working in the steel mills and it was a good
6
living, and on Main Street, though, in the public
7
contact jobs there were very few, I believe, in
8
Massilon.
9
up one or two persons in public contact jobs.
10
I don't remember but when I was growing
The community as a whole coalesced around
11
football.
I mean, in those days the Massilon
12
Tigers were winning, regularly winning the state
13
championships and Paul Brown, who ultimately owned
14
the Cleveland Browns and later the Cincinnati
15
team, he was the coach.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MR. FLOYD:
Wow.
And he was the coach during the
18
late '30s and early '40s and so he had already
19
built up a strong tradition.
20
won the state championship for the seventh
21
consecutive year and two of those years that I was
22
there we were national champs, so it was a town of
23
about 35,000 and on the day of a football game
24
stores closed for a period of time for the
25
marches, the rallies that we had and so forth, so
When I graduated we
�6
1
it was really a great place to grow up, but at the
2
same time there were problems, but not nearly as
3
much as we saw out in Kansas at that time.
4
(11:02:38)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
So you were clearly
6
surprised, then, when you arrived in Lawrence and
7
found --
8
MR. FLOYD:
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
Yes.
-- the conditions there and how
they differed?
11
MR. FLOYD:
12
(11:02:44)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
You have already briefly touched
14
on the meeting, and I think it was in 1957.
15
it just --
16
MR. FLOYD:
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Was
Yes.
-- at the beginning of the
18
school year in 1957 that you remember when you met
19
with the chancellor?
20
MR. FLOYD:
I think it was after the Fort
21
Worth experience in which we had had that
22
experience, and earlier in the year the basketball
23
team had some experience as well, as I understand
24
it, so we all just got together and said let's --
25
that was more focused on some of the experiences
�7
1
that we have had but also we took on the whole
2
thing and the chancellor really, Chancellor
3
Franklin D. Murphy, really stepped up, in my
4
judgment.
5
limits to students, that he would purchase or rent
6
the movies and show them on campus, and that
7
helped with the theater situation.
He threatened to make the theaters off
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
And then we had the issue of
10
restaurants and he began to speak out on that, and
11
there were others behind him, I'm sure, that was
12
doing some of the negotiations in regard to the --
13
I think, if I recall correctly, was it Phog
14
Allen's son?
15
were involved in it as well.
There was a couple of lawyers that
16
(11:04:34)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. FLOYD:
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
-- private attorney but also was
acting --
22
MR. FLOYD:
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
was probably involved.
25
Phog Allen's son was the
city attorney at that time, --
19
21
Right.
I don't remember.
MR. FLOYD:
Right, right.
-- as the city attorney so he
Yes, yes.
So, but at any rate,
�8
1
things got better.
2
just appreciative of the forthright steps that the
3
chancellor was willing to take, and as a matter of
4
fact, the following February he invited Thurgood
5
Marshall to be the Brotherhood Day speaker.
6
That's a February event --
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MR. FLOYD:
9
Things got better, and we were
Right.
-- in which, you know, he had
argued the Brown v. Board of Education case.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
And he invited him to be our
12
principal speaker, and I know, I even have
13
pictures of that, and it was so enlightening as
14
well as kind of verifying what we were saying,
15
that we needed to go forward and that we needed to
16
take giant steps, and that was something I thought
17
was very positive that the chancellor did.
18
(11:05:53)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Good.
And based on your
20
observations at the time, as best you can recall,
21
did the changes in attitudes or policies of some
22
of the local business people, that not only
23
applied to African-American student athletes but
24
also just student body in general and even local
25
residents, that you remember?
�9
1
MR. FLOYD:
Yes, I think that more and more
2
African-American students were enrolling at the
3
university, so that in and of itself meant that
4
downtown their presence was more -- it's, on
5
campus I think that they were way ahead of, in my
6
judgment, at any rate, than the businesses
7
downtown, but at the same time you could see
8
incremental progress taking place.
9
they couldn't stay at the hotel there and that was
At one point
10
an issue, I know, for when some of the parents
11
would come to town, yes.
12
(11:07:03)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
But no real change that you
14
recall in that time frame in housing policies, it
15
still was difficult for African-American students
16
who were coming to town to find adequate places to
17
live?
18
MR. FLOYD:
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MR. FLOYD:
If they did off campus, yes.
Right.
And as a result many of them were
21
able to stay in homes of other African-Americans
22
who lived in the community.
23
slow.
24
25
That was, housing was
Employment with each other eight hours or
more but, during the day, in the community you're
�10
1
living next to each other and so forth, and there
2
are all kinds of misconceptions, perceptions about
3
what will happen to your neighborhood if blacks
4
move in and, you know, things like that that you
5
had to overcome.
6
(11:08:01)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Right.
As we have done
8
the research for this project and been
9
interviewing people one of the things that really
10
becomes apparent is not only, besides the
11
influence that the university had in trying to
12
bring about change, many kind of grassroots
13
community groups were very involved, the churches,
14
both African-American and white churches, kind of
15
umbrella church organizations, the NAACP was very
16
involved, there was in Lawrence an organization in
17
the 1950s and early '60s which you probably
18
weren't aware of called the League for the
19
Promotion of Democracy and it had many not only
20
local African-American members but also a lot of
21
K.U. faculty who were, and I think the faculty
22
played a key role in a lot of these organizations
23
because of course you had people who were from
24
diverse backgrounds coming into Lawrence and
25
didn't necessarily like what they saw, but did you
�11
1
have any, during that early time when you were at
2
the university, any interaction with any of those
3
types of groups, through maybe a church
4
affiliation or were you aware of their efforts to
5
try and bring about change as well?
6
MR. FLOYD:
Well, there was student groups
7
that we coalesced with on certain issues as they
8
would occur.
9
was aware of some of the churches.
I was aware of some, or the NAACP, I
Probably not
10
as much involved in a couple of the organizations
11
you just mentioned, yes.
12
(11:09:36)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MR. FLOYD:
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes.
Okay.
In addition to the just
16
general kind of conditions of segregation, and you
17
obviously did mention some of the incidents that
18
occurred away, but do you remember any particular
19
incidents that occurred within Lawrence that were
20
particularly influential in kind of prodding
21
people to start pushing for change or was it just
22
kind of general, the general conditions at the
23
time that were --
24
25
MR. FLOYD:
Well, I think that at that point
in time people were just trying to get used to the
�12
1
idea that there was a change at the Supreme Court
2
level of what constituted discrimination, because
3
segregation was just the law of the land prior to
4
that and so as incidents or situations would
5
occur, you know, you problem solve around what is
6
it that has occurred and the like, and sometimes
7
we felt as though whatever the issue was we didn't
8
have an entree into a receptive -- how can I say
9
this?
We see situations that occur between let's
10
say two students, an African-American and a white.
11
Well, the African-American does not feel that I
12
can run to the administration and get justice --
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MR. FLOYD:
15
Right.
-- because of the social
distance.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
And that, I think, is what we
18
were really dealing with.
19
also the social distance --
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MR. FLOYD:
It's the attitude but
Sure.
-- was such that an identical set
22
of circumstances can mean different things to
23
different people, depend upon your previous
24
experience and so forth, and sometimes we didn't
25
feel that we had the ear of the administration or
�13
1
in, if it's, sometimes it could have been the
2
police issue involved.
3
could go to the administration or to the powers
4
that be and get a fair treatment.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
MR. FLOYD:
We didn't feel that we
Right.
In some instance we'll end up
7
getting the charge, and at the time I think the
8
society was still beginning to know how to deal
9
with the whole business of integration and equal
10
opportunity.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
And, see, in those days they just
13
told you up front we don't rent to colored.
14
want you to know that even after, even after
15
Kansas or after K.U. when I moved to Kansas City I
16
had been told that so many times until I started
17
to just over the phone in places that were open
18
for rent in the newspapers, I would say, "Do you
19
rent to colored?"
20
in those days.
21
(11:13:12)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
I
Because that's the way it was
Yes, the fact that you had to
23
ask that question is, you know, to people today
24
shocking.
25
MR. FLOYD:
And housing was much more
�14
1
difficult than some of the employment situations.
2
(11:13:23)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right.
Let's transition
4
from kind of that background to what it was that
5
then got you -- I mean, you obviously left K.U.
6
with opportunities to pursue a sports career but
7
chose instead to, you know, basically dedicate
8
your life to civil rights work.
9
motivated you?
What really
Was it some of those experiences
10
at K.U. that kind of led you down that path, and
11
how did you end up first I think working for the
12
City of Topeka in a civil rights position, then
13
ultimately becoming the director of the Kansas
14
state commission?
15
MR. FLOYD:
Well, immediately after college I
16
had a year of professional football in Canada and
17
then I came down to Kansas City, Missouri, in
18
which I was married and had one child, and we had
19
real difficulty finding housing there and that was
20
really an eye opening experience, too, how
21
segregated Missouri, Kansas City, Missouri, was at
22
the time, but I worked for about a year with the
23
Recreation Department there and I signed a
24
contract with the Cleveland Browns and went up and
25
went through their training camp and I got cut, so
�15
1
I came back to Kansas City, and when I came back
2
to Kansas City I was offered a job as an
3
investigator for the State of Kansas with the
4
Kansas Commission on Civil Rights and they had
5
just passed a fair employment practices statute at
6
that point in time, so with the experiences I have
7
had that was kind of a motivating factor to want
8
to see things change and be part of the change.
9
As you know, there were demonstrations and
10
all of those and I saw an opportunity for me to do
11
some good through the legal process and so
12
therefore I took the job and worked there for two
13
and a half years or so and took the position as
14
executive secretary of the Topeka, Kansas,
15
commission and was there for year and a half or
16
more, two years maybe, and then I ended up going
17
to Omaha as their director of their program and
18
then coming back to Kansas in I guess it was 1966,
19
I believe.
20
(11:60:03)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
At about the time you
22
came back Kansas was, and I think as early as '65
23
the Kansas Legislature had been considering a fair
24
housing law.
25
to kind of push that through the legislature?
How were you involved in that effort
�16
1
Which ultimately didn't happen until I think about
2
1970, but --
3
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
Yes, there was a big
4
movement during the year of '65, '66, '67 and we
5
thought we had fashioned a bill that was
6
acceptable to the legislators who were negotiating
7
with it but unfortunately we got it past the House
8
and I think it died in the Senate.
9
My recollection of it was that George Haley,
10
Senator George Haley, helped us as part of the
11
front of the movement, and we were -- much of the
12
push for the legislation was coming through the --
13
we had an advisory council.
14
Shechter was the chair of the advisory council,
15
and it was a statewide group that was helping to
16
mobilize and it grew larger and more influential
17
and then finally we were able to get the passage
18
of the statute in 19-, I guess it was 1967 -- no,
19
1970, January of 1970, January or February, during
20
that year.
21
legislation the session before, it's just that we
22
just couldn't get it through at that point in
23
time, yes.
I remember Ruth
But we had actually fashioned the
24
(11:18:00)
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
What do you recall about
�17
1
the opposition?
And obviously the real estate
2
industry was one of the key opponents of putting
3
that kind of a law into effect, and I have been
4
told by some of my previous interviewees that
5
their impression was that the Lawrence real estate
6
industry was in particular one of the ones that
7
were pushing hard against putting a law because
8
they argued that they should be able to regulate
9
themselves and this both infringed on their rights
10
and the rights of property owners.
11
recall about who the opposition was and what the
12
case, the arguments that they made against the law
13
that proved at least influential in the first
14
three or four years before you could finally get
15
it passed?
16
MR. FLOYD:
What do you
Well, I don't recall the specific
17
individuals but certainly the real estate
18
industry, both in Lawrence as well as statewide,
19
was opposed to the fair housing statute and they
20
constantly were, through their legislators that
21
they worked with, were constantly putting up
22
amendments to limit the authority, to limit the
23
consequences of discrimination and so forth, and
24
we had to fight against that, and my recollection
25
in '66, '67, that's when a lot of the negotiation
�18
1
was going on and we finally got something that was
2
acceptable and finally passed, you know, in 1970.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
MR. FLOYD:
5
6
7
Right.
But certainly Lawrence was able
to get theirs I guess in '68.
MR. ARNOLD:
July of '67 they finally passed
theirs.
8
MR. FLOYD:
9
(11:20:02)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
'67, yes, okay.
In '65, and this may have then
11
been before your time back in Kansas, it may have
12
actually been while you were in Omaha, but Wichita
13
actually passed the first Fair Housing Ordinance.
14
Did you have any involvement in that or were you
15
in communication with people down there to talk to
16
them about how they managed to get it through to
17
help your efforts to try and push it through the
18
state legislature?
19
20
MR. FLOYD:
That effort was going on at the
same time when I was in Kansas.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MR. FLOYD:
Okay.
For a long time that effort was
23
going on.
I left, while I left the State, I was
24
still in Topeka with a local human rights
25
commission and the state wide effort had an
�19
1
influence on what they were doing in Wichita, and
2
I was aware that Wichita, which is, you know, the
3
largest city, were able to pass the statute, and
4
that gave some support for other cities to take up
5
the issue, and certainly Lawrence did and was
6
successful.
7
(11:21:16)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Do you recall who were kind of
the key advocates within Lawrence or any
10
particular people that you worked with at the time
11
they were -- and sort of the timeline, just to
12
refresh your memory or give you the background,
13
based on our research, there had been discussions
14
of it I think among local groups as early as '65,
15
because they formed what they called a Fair
16
Housing Coordinating Committee, which brought
17
NAACP, church groups, various other citizen groups
18
together under an umbrella to work towards that,
19
and really sometime in '66 they decided that they
20
wanted to push it up to the City Commission and
21
actually right at the beginning of January of '67
22
they went to the Human Relations Commission in
23
Lawrence, proposed it.
24
25
The Human Relations Commission had already
been quietly working with them so they weren't
�20
1
surprised that it was coming to them and then they
2
drafted the ordinance and took it up to what
3
proved to be a fairly receptive City Commission,
4
which passed it in '67.
5
may have worked with or groups you may have worked
6
with or how they may have coordinated with you at
7
the state level in trying to bring this forward
8
within Lawrence?
9
MR. FLOYD:
But do you recall who you
Well, one of the things that we
10
would do at the state level is to share with the
11
local, other cities that have passed similar
12
housing laws and so forth, ordinances, to give
13
them some perspective of what they were to look
14
like, as well as whether it would be suitable for
15
their particular, and certainly we played that
16
role, and I do know that there was substantial
17
support from the city attorney's office and so
18
forth, and I think that there was influence also
19
from the K.U. leadership as well.
20
21
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, and I was going to ask
you about that, in fact.
MR. FLOYD:
Yes.
There was considerable
23
leadership there because of the fact that many of
24
their students were complaining and having their
25
own difficulties, so it was a wide segment of the
�21
1
population that was socially conscious about the
2
problems that really worked with each other, and
3
we had the statewide advisory council that also
4
played a role in supporting the local effort as
5
well.
6
(11:23:54)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And you are bringing up
8
an important point when you mention that you all
9
at the state level were trying to make local
10
communities aware of laws that had put in place
11
elsewhere, because Lawrence very much looked at a
12
couple of the university cities in Iowa, Iowa City
13
in particular, as a model because it sort of was a
14
town with a similar demographic and so they very
15
much modeled theirs on Iowa City's, as well as
16
looking at Wichita as a model.
17
The university certainly played a role and
18
they had already gone through, both at the time
19
you were there and then afterwards there's some --
20
MR. FLOYD:
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Demonstrations.
-- demonstrations and later
22
football players, including a gentleman named Gale
23
Sayers, was involved in demonstrating against not
24
just discrimination in university housing in
25
particular, which I think they had already
�22
1
addressed by that point, but one of the concerns
2
was housing in the community still being
3
segregated, opportunities not being offered to
4
African-Americans, and the university yet would
5
allow those landlords to advertise on campus and
6
so there was a big push for the university to ban
7
landlords who wouldn't rent to African-Americans
8
from being able to advertise on campus and in fact
9
they were successful with that, but when the
10
ordinance came up for consideration by the City
11
Commission both the vice chancellor wrote a letter
12
saying, you know, we very much support this, it
13
conforms with what is now university policy, and
14
then also, interestingly, Ted Owens, the
15
basketball coach, came forward and said, you know,
16
when I go out and recruit athletes I tell their
17
parents they're sending them to a town that they'd
18
be proud to have their son play sports in and, you
19
know, we need to make changes like this so that in
20
fact Lawrence will live up to, you know, a
21
reputation and be a place where people would want
22
their children to come.
23
So do you -- I take it, then, you feel that
24
the university, that influence was very important
25
in probably changing attitudes?
�23
1
MR. FLOYD:
Absolutely, absolutely, and also
2
the fact that the professionalism that the
3
university had in their professors and
4
administrators was very important.
5
that there were demonstrations on campus for some
6
of those issues as well and I remember there was
7
one group took over the chancellor's office, if I
8
recall correctly.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
MR. FLOYD:
Now, I know
Right, right, yes.
So yes, the progress didn't come
11
without some kind of tension and some kind of
12
pushback, but at the same time it was good that so
13
many people were willing to get together, work
14
together, in order to push the community forward,
15
and I think this is a prime example of that.
16
(11:27:08)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And in fact one of the
18
individuals I interviewed for this project told me
19
that frankly he didn't think Lawrence would have
20
been one of the first towns in Kansas to pass such
21
an ordinance if it hadn't been a university town
22
and kind of the diversity of points of view,
23
leading a lot of people to think this is wrong and
24
we need to change it.
25
MR. FLOYD:
Absolutely, yes.
�24
1
(11:27:30)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
There was actually at the time
3
the Human Relations Commission in Lawrence was
4
working on drafting the Fair Housing Ordinance in
5
early '67, in the minutes of one of their
6
meetings, and I'll put you on the spot a little
7
bit here to see how good your memory is because it
8
was 50 years ago and you may not even remember
9
this, but according to minutes in the March, 1967,
10
Human Relations Commission it said that you had
11
met with the Lawrence real estate board to discuss
12
fair housing with them, and in fact Glenn
13
Kappelman, who was a member of the Human Relations
14
Commission and also a local realtor who supported
15
fair housing, was quoted as saying that you, Homer
16
Floyd, were well received and expected to be
17
invited to appear before the board again in the
18
future.
19
Do you remember meeting with the Lawrence
20
real estate board specifically on the Fair Housing
21
Ordinance and what their attitudes were when you
22
met with them?
23
MR. FLOYD:
I do remember one meeting and
24
everything's a little fuzzy now in terms of some
25
of the personalities.
�25
1
MR. ARNOLD:
2
MR. FLOYD:
Sure.
It was helpful that I had played
3
football and had had a name in the state, but --
4
so some would have, just on the matter of
5
courtesy, would have welcomed me, but I do recall
6
that there was some support in that group for,
7
particularly when we talked about how it would
8
function, how the ordinance would function, and
9
the kind of, the steps that would be taken after a
10
11
complaint would be filed and so forth.
I remember, you know, that kind of discussion
12
and asking for their support.
13
recollection of any vote or anything like that was
14
taken.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
MR. FLOYD:
17
Now, I have no
Right, right.
But in that context I was well
received, yes.
18
(11:29:39)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Another interesting observation
20
that one of the people I interviewed made was, in
21
talking about the attitude of the realtors, that
22
some of the realtors they believed quietly
23
welcomed this because it gave them -- they really
24
wanted to bring about change, they felt that
25
change was right, but they felt like they needed
�26
1
something, a framework that would allow them to do
2
it without necessarily it hurting their customer
3
base, whereas other realtors, whether through
4
prejudice, just innate prejudice, or the fact that
5
they were so concerned about the impact that it
6
might have on their business continued to be
7
opposed to it, but did you have that same
8
impression, that there were some who favored fair
9
housing but were reluctant to speak out because
10
they were afraid how it might hurt their business
11
but kind of quietly hoped that it would come to
12
fruition?
13
MR. FLOYD:
Absolutely.
There always was a
14
discussion if I do this so and so is going to use
15
it against me as it relates to whatever products,
16
you know, I'm selling or whatever, that it's going
17
to adversely affect my business, and of course our
18
position was simply that if you pass the ordinance
19
everybody will be under the same requirements and
20
the same process so therefore it is going to be
21
good for you.
22
and say that," and so there were that
23
undercurrent, in two ways, undercurrent to say
24
please do it, but there were others who was less
25
enthusiastic about it, yes.
Said, "Yes, but I can't come out
�27
1
(11:31:31)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
And you wonder if that
3
same problem was even more pervasive just than in
4
the business world, because one of the interesting
5
things is, again, and much of the local Fair
6
Housing Coordinating Committee was very active not
7
only in pushing the issue up to the Human
8
Relations Commission but also kind of doing a
9
separate sort of public relations campaign in
10
favor of it.
11
local paper in favor of fair housing and then they
12
also did a signature campaign and well over a
13
thousand people in Lawrence, and the City actually
14
sat down and mapped out the addresses of all these
15
people and found it was widespread all over the
16
city, not just, you know, in particular
17
neighborhoods, but there seemed to be pretty
18
broad-based support, but it does make you wonder
19
with that level of support were there a lot of
20
people who were just quietly in favor but
21
reluctant to speak out because they weren't sure
22
what their neighbors would think or whatever.
23
you find that not only in Lawrence but kind of
24
just generally in your civil rights work?
25
They had articles published in the
MR. FLOYD:
Did
Tom, that is a major problem even
�28
1
today.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
Sometimes we use words and
4
phrases to stop our enemy or to block things
5
through scare tactics and so forth and it is -- we
6
are acculturated in such a way that the
7
experiences of whites growing up in their
8
neighborhood and their particular area, they are
9
acculturated along racial lines, as
10
African-Americans are.
11
We have our own situations that we have to be
12
concerned about, and nobody wants to get out there
13
and stand up and be the first to say this is not
14
right, we're going to stop this, and so forth,
15
because they don't want to be called names, those
16
dirty names that you get called when you're a
17
traitor, and so a lot of people would want to go
18
along with it but they don't want to be out front
19
leading it because of the consequences that they
20
feel they are going to have, and that is on all
21
groups, it's not just whites and blacks.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. FLOYD:
Sure.
I mean, that's just the way it
24
is, and getting people to speak up and be
25
comfortable doing so is sometimes difficult.
�29
1
(11:34:15)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes, and again, many of
3
the people I have interviewed felt like that one
4
of the reasons it did pass fairly easily in
5
Lawrence is that there was pretty broad-based
6
support even if it wasn't necessarily apparent on
7
the surface, but once you put it forward very few
8
people, in fact during the actual hearings many,
9
many people from all different backgrounds came up
10
and spoke out in favor of the fair housing
11
ordinance and the only group that showed up was
12
one realtor and the lawyer who represented the
13
Board of Realtors were the only two who spoke out
14
against it and there seemed to be very little,
15
once it passed, consternation within the community
16
at all about that this major step had been taken.
17
Did you have a sense or did you observe in
18
your position at the state level that once the
19
ordinance was put in place in Wichita, Lawrence,
20
and it may have been done in other communities
21
than Lawrence after that, that noticeable change
22
came about, or was change often more slow in
23
coming and enforcement required to make sure that
24
change actually started to happen?
25
MR. FLOYD:
Well, certainly change is slow
�30
1
and in housing, since you've got to have, you've
2
got to qualify for loans and that kind of thing
3
the purchase of housing certainly was a slow
4
process in that change.
5
nothing was easy, but a little easier because, you
6
know, first you rent before you buy generally.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MR. FLOYD:
Rentals was a little,
Right.
And so there were more people who
9
were willing to take advantage of opportunities on
10
a rental basis, but even at that it was slow, and
11
I think social change in certain areas doesn't
12
happen overnight.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
MR. FLOYD:
15
Right.
It's a gradual evolutionary
process, and I think that's what we've seen, yes.
16
(11:36:26)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Let me just take a look at my
18
questions here and see what I may have missed that
19
I want to make sure that I ask you about.
20
Do you remember any, and I had mentioned
21
earlier, for example, Jesse Milan, but do you
22
remember any, do you have any observations of his
23
work and do you remember any other particular
24
individuals in Lawrence who you recall from that
25
time frame who were particularly active and
�31
1
2
influential in helping to bring about change?
MR. FLOYD:
Jesse, Jesse Milan I knew very
3
well.
We were close friends.
He was so valuable
4
to that community.
5
Alversa were the first African-Americans I met
6
from the community and he was pushing his own,
7
because he was I think the first teacher,
8
African-American teacher in the system as well, so
9
he had his own issues that he dealt with, but he
When I got there he and
10
was always willing to listen and always willing to
11
reach out to us as students at the university and
12
in the community.
13
When the civil rights movement began to take
14
shape he was always right there with sound
15
leadership and sound suggestions as to how to get
16
things done.
17
and admiration for him because he was a true, I
18
think, positive leader in that community.
I had just a great deal of respect
19
(11:38:05)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
A number of people have
21
also mentioned, and I don't have any names in
22
front of me, but different ministers in some of
23
the churches, both African-American and white
24
churches in Lawrence, also played key roles, if
25
not necessarily always highly public roles, but at
�32
1
least roles in encouraging their congregations to
2
be more involved to try and bring about social
3
change.
4
any impressions of their efforts and how important
5
it was?
6
Do you remember any or do you just have
MR. FLOYD:
I am having difficulty
7
remembering the ministers but I do know that there
8
was some church leadership that was supporting the
9
efforts and there were, I remember some meetings
10
that we attended in which they were trying to
11
organize and strategize as to what should be our
12
next steps and so forth.
13
(11:39:00)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
And sometimes it's
15
important to think of the churches as the
16
conscience of the community --
17
MR. FLOYD:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
Absolutely.
-- and their attitudes often
playing a big role in bringing about change.
20
Do you remember, also according to, and I
21
think this was actually in a newspaper article
22
that mentioned who appeared before the City
23
Commission in May, 1967, when they held their
24
hearing in which the proponents made the case for
25
fair housing, but it mentioned that you had
�33
1
actually appeared and spoken on behalf as,
2
obviously, the director of the State Civil Rights
3
Commission.
4
remember what kind of reception you got and how
5
receptive the City Commission seemed to be on the
6
issue?
7
Do you remember that and do you
MR. FLOYD:
I vaguely remember because there
8
were several other communities in which, and
9
sometimes things run together.
10
(11:39:58)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
13
Right.
You probably did that
quite often.
MR. FLOYD:
But I do remember supporting the
14
ordinance and I do -- I don't think that there was
15
a lot of vocal opposition.
16
those settings I don't remember a lot of vocal --
17
I mean, there could be two or three people
18
speaking against but the overwhelming was a
19
positive support for the ordinance.
20
(11:40:30)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I don't remember, in
And were you surprised
22
at all when it passed in Lawrence or were you
23
expecting that?
24
MR. FLOYD:
25
Or do you even remember?
It's just hard to say because
there were times at the state level in '67 that we
�34
1
just knew we had the bill passed and then all of a
2
sudden something happened and somebody decided to
3
vote the other way and -- or make a parliamentary
4
move to block it, you know, so you never be too
5
confident on something like this.
6
(11:41:03)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
Do you have a sense of whether the passage of
9
Right.
I can understand.
the ordinance in Lawrence had any broader
10
influence within the state?
11
effort to get the state law, continue pushing
12
forward with getting the state law passed, did it
13
influence other communities, that you remember, or
14
do you have any recollection of that?
15
MR. FLOYD:
Did it help with the
Yes, I think that because Wichita
16
and certainly Lawrence, that helped for
17
legislators at the state level, for those two
18
communities, and I don't know of anybody else at
19
the time, but --
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Topeka may have passed theirs, I
21
have to go back and look, before the state one was
22
passed.
23
time that Lawrence's was passed.
I know they were working on it at the
24
MR. FLOYD:
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, and I just don't remember.
Right.
�35
1
MR. FLOYD:
But certainly for legislators
2
from the areas we could always point to that fact,
3
that it's already a law in your community so
4
therefore why wouldn't we want to make it for the
5
whole state?
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. FLOYD:
Right.
And that was an argument that
8
we've used, and I do think that there was an
9
influence, a positive influence to be able to
10
point to Lawrence and to Wichita, yes.
11
(11:42:34)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
Reflecting back on the roles you played in
Right.
Great.
14
the pursuit of civil rights in Kansas, what would
15
you say you are, what accomplishments are you most
16
proud of?
17
MR. FLOYD:
I think the single most has to do
18
with the passage of the statewide fair housing.
I
19
mean, that was just such an issue for a number of
20
years that we put a lot of emphasis and a lot of
21
attention to, because we had seen the positive
22
effects of the fair employment practices law, we
23
had seen the positive effects that it had, and we
24
just knew that if we could get the state passed it
25
would not only provide more opportunities but it
�36
1
also would put people, give opportunities to
2
people who never had it before and put people into
3
communities, as well as in schools, that haven't
4
had contact before.
5
When I came to the University of Kansas as a
6
freshman some of my teammates from Kansas or rural
7
areas had never had contact with an
8
African-American in their lives and we went from
9
not knowing anything about each other, playing
10
three years, and then the fourth year, or playing
11
three years together, and I was elected co-captain
12
of the football team.
13
ways we had come.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MR. FLOYD:
That was, that was a long
Right.
And I think that the whole idea
16
of people having experiences with each other is so
17
important to breaking down the barriers.
18
(11:44:45)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
20
MR. FLOYD:
Sorry.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Absolutely.
That's all right.
One final
22
question.
As we look at all the progress that's
23
been made but the obvious challenges we still
24
face, and we've seen, and I won't get into
25
politics here, but just in the last two or three
�37
1
weeks people out in the street concerned about
2
changes that may come forward, but if young people
3
came to you as someone who's dedicated most of
4
your life to pursuing social justice and civil
5
rights what kind of advice would you give them as
6
to how to continue making progress and hopefully
7
keep us from slipping backwards?
8
9
MR. FLOYD:
Well, I would say that we have to
recognize the importance of supporting diversity
10
and recognizing that people from different
11
cultures, different backgrounds, their major
12
objectives in life are pretty much the same, you
13
know.
14
We have families.
We want to see our
15
families do well, and at the same time we want to
16
see our community, our nation, move forward, and I
17
think that the best way we can do that is
18
recognizing the value in each of us and respecting
19
that just because my experiences lead me to this
20
conclusion doesn't necessarily mean that I am
21
evil, I'm doing something to damage somebody else,
22
but also keeping in mind that we all should have
23
at least the same opportunity to whatever it is,
24
and some are going to fail, many will succeed, but
25
just recognizing that.
�38
1
And, as I think I said earlier, an identical
2
set of circumstances can mean different things to
3
different people.
4
your background has been, and also how these
5
events have shaped our history to some extent and
6
how -- and look at ways in which we can overcome
7
the nastiness of our democracy, and sometimes that
8
is difficult when you are in the storm, but at the
9
same time we've got to step back sometime and just
10
take a look at where we are and what is it that we
11
would like to be and whether or not we can be the
12
vessel to be able to carry that forward.
13
(11:48:08)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
It's what you've learned, what
Right.
Very good.
I have come
15
to the end of my questions, but I wanted to give
16
you an opportunity if there's anything we didn't
17
cover that you think is important that you would
18
like to add.
19
20
21
22
MR. FLOYD:
extensive.
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, good.
Well, thank you
very much for your time.
23
MR. FLOYD:
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
I think that the questions were
That's all right.
This was very worthwhile and
another great contribution to our project, so I
�39
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
really appreciate it.
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Floyd, Homer
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
0:53:14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Homer Floyd
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Homer Floyd, who was the director of the Kansas State Commission on Civil Rights at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. Mr. Floyd had also been student athlete at the University of Kansas in the 1950s, and discusses his experiences with segregation in Lawrence during that time period. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on November 22, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Floyd, Homer
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11/22/2016
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/homer-floyd-22-nov-2016?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
FloydInterview112216.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1950s - 1967
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/62f4722b6af40d084f937f586cc8e7bf.pdf
c258207d23611c06f08423e835766f50
PDF Text
Text
1
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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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4
LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
5
50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
6
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10
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Interview of Ronald Dalquest & Donald Dalquest
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November 9, 2016
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�2
1
(9:37:17)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is November 9th, 2016.
I
3
am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing
4
brothers Ronald and Donald Dalquest at the
5
Lawrence Public Library in Lawrence, Kansas, for
6
the City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th
7
Anniversary Oral History Project.
8
At the time the ordinance passed in July,
9
1967, Ron and Don were serving as City of Lawrence
10
police officers.
So what I'd like to start off
11
with is have both of you just tell me a little bit
12
about your backgrounds and what brought you to
13
Lawrence in the mid 1960s.
14
So Ron, why don't you start off.
15
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Okay, Don came in 1965,
16
December, '65, and he came back to Junction City,
17
we was both born and raised in Junction City, and
18
he was telling me all these stories about what he
19
did on the Police Department and I said, you know,
20
fight and get paid for it?
21
I'm all for that.
And I asked him if they would hire twin
22
brothers and he said he didn't know, he would
23
check with the chief.
24
Troelstrup.
25
made out my application, and they interviewed me
Chief at that time was Bill
And so I came down in August of '66,
�3
1
and I had to take the MMPI test, and that was your
2
aptitude test, you know.
3
After I took it the chief told me that the
4
professor up at K.U. said, told the chief that he
5
knew that they would try him to find out, you
6
know, if he knew what he was talking about and he
7
said, "You got another officer up there that
8
filled out the same application and did the same
9
test," and then the chief says, "No, they're
10
11
identical twin brothers."
And there was only about two questions that
12
we missed.
13
complete?
14
his and so he said no and I was married at the
15
time so I said yes, and I can't remember what the
16
other question was, but there was only two or
17
three, you know, that was different.
18
One of them was is your sex life
And Don was single when he filled out
So they hired me on September the 23rd, 1966,
19
and I worked for the Lawrence Police Department
20
for 27 1/2 years, retired September the 23rd in
21
'93, went to work for the U.S. Marshals Service as
22
a court security officer and worked for them until
23
January the 8th, 19 -- no, 2014.
24
and three months for them.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Worked 20 years
All right.
Don?
Sounds
�4
1
like you're the first one to come to Lawrence.
2
What brought you here from Junction City to become
3
a police officer?
4
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, I got out of the
5
Air Force.
6
got out in November, '65, and I started applying.
7
I knew I wanted to be a policeman.
8
9
I joined the Air Force in '61 and I
MR. ARNOLD:
Is that because your -- Ron was
telling me earlier your father had been a police
10
officer in Junction City and then became an
11
armourer on the base at Fort Riley.
12
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
So was it kind of because you
14
were just sort of following in his footsteps or
15
was it based on experience you had in the Air
16
Force?
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, you know, yes, he
18
always talked about the Police Department down
19
there and stuff.
20
out in November and so I came and started applying
21
around, and I had a friend who had moved up here
22
and he said, "Why don't you apply up here in
23
Lawrence?"
They wasn't hiring when I got
24
And I came up here and I talked to Chief
25
Troelstrup, talked to him for like two hours.
He
�5
1
didn't have any openings so he said, "Sorry, just
2
don't have any openings."
3
So I applied in Kansas City and in
4
Leavenworth and so I was back home there and I
5
read in the Topeka Daily Capital that Lawrence was
6
hiring so I came back up here and talked to Chief
7
Troelstrup and he says, yes, he says, they had
8
three guys quit and go out there to Sunflower
9
{Army Ammunition Plant] making more money.
10
So he took me upstairs and I took my MMPI,
11
took my, did my physical, and then I think it was
12
week later I did an interview, and I know one of
13
the questions was, you know, says, "The only thing
14
you've ever done is went in the Air Force, the
15
only job you held?"
16
a job since I was eight.
17
is just what you been doing the last four years.
18
I was in the Air Force."
19
Said, "No," I said, "I've had
I think on your question
So anyway, they interviewed me and hired me.
20
Came to work here in November, '65, and they asked
21
me if I could drink and I said, yes, I could, and
22
they sent me around with the detectives for a week
23
to check on the bars, see if they was selling
24
liquor, you know, in the 3.2 bars, and so I caught
25
one of them, Dynamite Club out on 23rd, but nobody
�6
1
2
3
4
knew me from around here so -MR. ARNOLD:
So you could do a little
undercover kind of work?
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Did undercover.
Matter
5
of fact, they sent me in on one of the first
6
prostitutes that we busted down here on Mass, so
7
nobody knew me, and they told me come in dressed
8
up like a college student.
9
I did, and we got her.
But yes, it just, you know, my dad was in law
10
enforcement and when I was in the Air Force I was
11
an air policeman.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
16
Okay.
And so --
It was a pretty natural
transition for you?
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
Did police -- I
17
knew I couldn't be a policeman until I hit 21 and
18
so I joined the Air Force because they had that
19
specialty code of air police, so I did it, I
20
enjoyed it, and I came up here and, like I say, I
21
had a buddy and then Troelstrup hired me and I
22
went on from there.
23
(9:44:59)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Okay.
Describe the Lawrence
police force in that time frame, how large it was.
�7
1
I assume there was no campus police at the time,
2
it was just one police force for --
3
4
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
The campus police was
actually security.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
6
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
They didn't
7
really have any law enforcement.
8
crime up there we would have to investigate it or
9
we'd have to come up there and take a report.
10
think they was actually just door shakers on
11
security.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
14
15
16
17
If they had a
Okay.
Moomau, Chief Moomau
when he come in.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
Chief Moomau, and
I think he had been a Highway Patrolman and stuff.
Yes, our Police Department, we had a
18
three-district plan.
19
Massachusetts out to 15th Street.
20
East Bottoms and North Lawrence.
21
everything south of 15th Street.
22
(9:46:17)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
25
I
121 was everything west of
Okay.
122 had the
123 district was
And how many officers
total, roughly?
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
I think we had
�8
1
something like maybe 30.
I know that 122
2
district, was two of us in there.
3
had two.
4
there.
5
so that was about all we had.
121 district
123 district only had one person in
And you had a sergeant and a lieutenant,
6
You'd have the three-district plan, then
7
you'd have a backup car and so sometimes when the
8
guys was off or somebody called in sick you was
9
running two districts, one north and one south.
10
Fifteenth Street was the divider.
11
(Phone ringing)
12
That was Ron's phone that went off.
13
But anyway, sometimes the dispatcher would
14
call in sick, we only had one dispatcher, and the
15
dispatcher, if they called in sick, why, then you
16
was down to one car sometimes, sometimes two, two
17
people.
18
We didn't have any jailers.
19
over here at 745 Vermont.
20
Department was.
21
That's where our Police
So it was just a, you know, local, local
22
Police Department.
23
(9:48:04)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Our jail was
Okay.
So we'll get into talking
a little bit later in the interview about the
�9
1
events in '68, '69, '70, when things got pretty
2
exciting in Lawrence.
3
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And one of the things that we'll
5
talk about, because you all discussed it about a
6
month ago at the Final Friday program over at
7
Watkins, about how a pretty small Police
8
Department was fairly stressed by the amount of
9
things that were going on in that time frame.
10
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
You know, when
11
you have a 24-hour business and, you know, you
12
only got, I think it was like four or five of us
13
that was working, when I first came on we was
14
working a 44-hour work week.
15
what was it, I think you got six days off a month,
16
and so then to go to a 40-hour work week they had
17
to hire more people, and that wasn't until, I
18
think, '73.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
We got, let's see,
Wow.
But we had no Handy
21
Talkies so on communications everybody was on
22
39-58 and 39-70, 39-58, the K.U. Police
23
Department, Lawrence Police Department, K.U., or
24
Douglas County Sheriff, and all the other
25
sheriffs' departments was all 39-58.
�10
1
(9:49:34)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
4
5
6
And those are radio frequencies
used in your car?
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Radio frequencies,
right.
And I think it was around '67 we got, '67 we
7
got new frequencies, which was high band, and we
8
could go 10-55, which is scramble, and so we could
9
scramble it and people with monitors couldn't
10
monitor it.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
12
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
But, you know, when I
13
first came here we had two Fords and two Chevies
14
and they didn't have air conditioning in them and
15
I know Chief Troelstrup had told the city
16
commissioners that they was either going to have
17
to pay for our clothing cleaning or put air
18
conditioners in the car so they decided in '67,
19
'67 I think we got air conditioning in our
20
vehicles.
21
But, you know, it was one of those things
22
where you just, if you got a call, you know, if
23
you'd stop a vehicle, we called that 10-45 and
24
you'd stop the vehicle and you'd have to turn on
25
your P.A. system, so when you got out of the car
�11
1
you'd turn on your P.A. system, get up there and
2
talk to the people, and then if a call came in
3
you'd have to go back to your car and answer it,
4
then go back up there and give them their driver's
5
license back and say, "Well, you lucked out this
6
time."
7
8
But, you know, that was just one of the
things that had to happen.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
Right.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
But you was the only
11
one that were -- there might be two of you there
12
on any type of a call so you basically just was
13
out there by yourself.
14
(9:51:49)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
You just had to handle it.
Let me ask both of you, and
16
since, Don, you have been talking we'll just
17
continue with you to start with and then we'll
18
switch over to Ron, but when you came to Lawrence
19
in that time frame kind of describe the town for
20
me.
21
your answer both, you know, was there a lot, much
22
crime or was it pretty quiet or if there was crime
23
what, was it kind of low level stuff?
What was Lawrence like then?
And include in
24
And then the other thing I really wanted you
25
to kind of describe is, you know, what the racial
�12
1
environment was like, what kind of segregation,
2
and kind of compare it a little bit to what you
3
were used to from coming to Junction City, which
4
was an Army town, which probably had a lot more
5
diversity in that regard, so if you can kind of
6
cover all that in one answer, and take as long as
7
you need.
8
9
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Okay.
Yes, when I came
here, matter of fact my dad had told me that
10
Lawrence had a good Police Department even back in
11
the '40s when he was on the Police Department.
12
You know, Junction City was more rough and tough
13
because they had a lot of GIs out there.
14
population was 18,000.
15
out there and so they had to -- but they had the
16
MPs to help them.
They had 18,000 soldiers
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
19
on the Police Department.
20
The
Right.
We never had that here
When I first came to town here they put me in
21
the East Bottoms and North Lawrence.
22
predominantly black.
That was
23
Sorry, my voice is cracking up.
24
But, you know, I got to know the people down
25
there and talking to them and stuff, but, yes, we
�13
1
didn't have a lot of blacks in the other part of
2
town.
3
little bit but predominantly they was in the East
4
Bottoms and North Lawrence.
5
We had some up on Sixth Street here a
They had the Green Gables down there and they
6
mostly stayed around the Green Gables.
7
black bar.
8
(9:54:06)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
11
That was a
And where was that?
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
That was down there on
East Ninth.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
East Eighth.
14
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, I'm sorry, East
15
Okay.
Eighth.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Been Eighth and New
18
York, but that was about the only bar that they
19
had.
20
The Southern Pit was there at 19th and Mass.
21
Indians would congregate all in the Southern Pit.
22
That was the closest one to Haskell.
23
they also had one there right there at 19th that
24
was, can't remember the name of that, but it was
25
where the Yellow House is now, or used to be.
You had Haskell out there for the Indians.
The
And then
�14
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right.
2
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
But, you know, there
3
was like 1,800 students and stuff.
4
didn't have a lot of crime but we had burglaries
5
and thefts.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
8
9
10
You know, we
Right.
We didn't write a lot
of reports.
(9:55:36)
MR. ARNOLD:
I assume violent crime was
11
fairly rare, maybe a bar fight or that sort of
12
thing?
13
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, you know, you
14
used to have some guns involved, you know, just
15
like a card party.
16
to pull out a pistol and it had about a six or
17
seven-inch barrel, ol' Al had, and by the time he
18
could get it out of his pants the other guy had
19
already hit him over the head with a whiskey
20
bottle.
One card party this guy tried
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
22
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
But, you know, we
23
didn't have a lot of homicides, not until later
24
on, we started getting some homicides, but
25
Lawrence, you know, bar fights, stuff like that
�15
1
there.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right.
3
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
K.U. students against
4
the home guys, the Indians, you know, against the
5
locals, sometimes you had some of that, but
6
predominantly the Indians kept to themselves.
7
K.U. students came through town, but, see, when I
8
first came here all the students had to have a
9
sticker in their back window for the University of
10
Kansas.
If you caught somebody here without the
11
sticker you knew that they wasn't going to K.U. or
12
they was in violation.
13
card, then you'd call K.U. P.D. and they'd come
14
down and ticket them on that for not having their
15
car registered.
If they had a K.U. ID
16
Haskell students couldn't have a car.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Interesting.
They had to live in the
19
dormitories.
20
year, they could live off campus if they was
21
married, but, you know, that was probably the
22
biggest thing.
23
The ones in their second or third
You know, as far as prejudice goes against
24
the blacks, I didn't get to see that because I
25
wasn't black, you know, but I knew that they
�16
1
didn't have a swimming pool.
2
asked for swimming pools and stuff.
3
they didn't have that until later on.
4
they complained to you about this and that but
5
there's nothing we could do about it.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
You know,
You know,
Right, right.
8
first line of defense.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
You know, they'd
You know, we're the
Right.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And so they'd come up
11
and say, "Well, how come we don't have this?"
12
never really seen prejudice.
13
about it, but in Junction City we had a, very
14
diverse because of Fort Riley.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
I
You know, I'd heard
Right.
And so blacks marrying
17
whites, they brought Germans back, German wives,
18
they was white girls, and -- but, you know, at
19
that time you could look on their military ID card
20
and they was a white female but it said black
21
female.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
23
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Because they didn't
24
want the Germans to marry a black over there, come
25
over here, and then the white guys wouldn't know
�17
1
that they had been married to a black guy, and,
2
you know, man, they had, you know, just stuff like
3
that there that went on.
4
When I went in the service, basic training
5
down there, and we had whites, blacks, in our
6
platoon, or our flight, and one kept calling the
7
other one an N word, you know, white guy was --
8
and they was from Alabama, you know, and so one of
9
them had been in the church with Martin Luther
10
King, the black guy had, and the white guy was on
11
the outside of it when they burnt the church, you
12
know.
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Wow.
14
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And so the northern
15
blacks said, "Hey, we'll take care of him for
16
you."
17
don't want you guys to do anything because if I
18
let you touch him I can't go back to town," you
19
know.
20
opener, you know, you think, whoa.
He said, "No, don't take care of him.
And, you know, you talk about an eye
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MR. DALQUEST:
23
(10:00:28)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
I
Yes, yes.
Never, never heard that.
So you all, you were definitely,
from your experience in Junction City and then
�18
1
from in the military racial mixing was pretty much
2
the norm for you all but here in Lawrence you
3
generally didn't see, everybody kind of, the
4
African-Americans stayed in their own
5
neighborhoods, they went to their own bars, you
6
know, they didn't have access to integrated pools,
7
so Lawrence was definitely not a mixed community
8
by any means back in those days?
9
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
And if you did
10
see blacks out in the other bars and stuff it was
11
normally a K.U. student, and they, you know,
12
they'd came from out of town, but normally your
13
blacks stayed down in the East Bottoms, up here in
14
the east part of town, or North Lawrence.
15
And we had a lot of problems about the
16
Mississippi blacks coming up here and going to
17
work out there at Sunflower Ordnance, and if you
18
seen a real dark black guy he was normally from
19
Hollandale, Mississippi, and then a lot of them
20
came up here and went to work out there at
21
Sunflower, you know, had good jobs out there.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
24
25
Right.
And so animosity
between the local blacks and the -(10:01:56)
�19
1
MR. ARNOLD:
You know, that's interesting,
2
I've read that, that the African-Americans who
3
came in more recently from Mississippi and then
4
many other African-Americans who had been in
5
Lawrence since probably right, Civil War, right
6
after, --
7
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
get along very well.
Right.
-- that they didn't necessarily
Did that add challenges to
10
your policing in that sometimes there would be
11
tension within the African-American community?
12
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
And, you know, we
13
had black officers here and they got along good
14
down there but, you know, later on during the
15
riots and stuff they got challenged, they got --
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
17
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Threatened.
18
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Threatened.
19
call them Uncle Toms and stuff.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
They'd
Right, right.
But these are good
22
people here in town, had a lot of relatives and
23
stuff, so, you know, that just -- it was
24
interesting.
25
didn't know anybody, didn't know anybody here in
I mean, you know, I went down there,
�20
1
town.
I came, lived down here on Kentucky in an
2
apartment; came down on Kentucky, went back on
3
Tennessee, down to the Police Department.
4
(10:03:15)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
I assume probably the apartment
6
building you lived in wouldn't have had
7
African-Americans in it, it would have been all
8
white probably?
9
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
But, you know, we had
10
bench seats and my partner was a short guy, Lyle
11
Sutton, and I always said that across my knees was
12
written Plymouth Fury.
13
didn't even know where I was driving to, see, and
14
when I did start driving, well, then he had to
15
tell me, "Turn, turn."
But he had to drive.
Said, "Left or right?"
16
But I learned it and enjoyed myself.
17
(10:03:50)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I
Well, I'll let you rest
19
your voice for a few minutes, since you've been
20
talking a lot, and turn it over to Ron.
21
Ron, give me your perspectives on how you
22
found Lawrence when you first got here and kind of
23
what your reactions to sort of the racial
24
environment and just kind of what kind of town
25
Lawrence was at that time.
�21
1
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Well, first of all,
2
Chief Troelstrup, when he hired me he said that,
3
"If you're half as good as your brother, then
4
we'll get along just fine," and I said, "Well, I'm
5
not half as good, I'm better than he is."
6
But we never could ride together, or we
7
couldn't be on the same shift.
They said we could
8
conspire with one another and maybe do some wrong
9
things or something, so we never did.
In fact,
10
when Don got ready to go to the Sheriff's Office
11
they let us ride the last week together.
12
both sergeants and so we got to ride that week
13
together.
14
But Don was right.
We was
I was on the East
15
Bottoms, too, and North Lawrence.
16
on midnight shift, on the shift I was on, we had
17
an old lieutenant and on midnights, well, if the
18
dispatcher wasn't there one of us would have to
19
dispatch and we would split the town at 15th
20
Street, one of us run north, one of us run south,
21
and so we only had two guys out there on the
22
street.
23
Handy Talkies or any time, so you had to basically
24
handle it yourself, and, you know, sometimes you
25
had to knock a few heads, you know, and we had
We didn't have backup.
A lot of times
You didn't have
�22
1
39-58, like Don said, radio.
2
I went down to a bar fight one night, made
3
three arrests, and I had them on the floor, you
4
know, but I only had one set of handcuffs so I
5
handcuffed two of them together and as I was
6
handcuffing them guys, they was a bunch of town
7
guys and they was beating up some K.U. students at
8
the old Purple Pig down on New Hampshire Street
9
and one of them, as I was handcuffing the other
10
two together the other, third one, he bolted out
11
the back door, and so I went out.
12
I called my lieutenant, he was dispatching,
13
and I said, you know, "Can the other officer meet
14
me?"
15
said, "What do you suggest I do?"
16
didn't want them sitting in the back seat on me.
17
And he said, "Well, you're only a couple blocks
18
from the station.
19
walk them down here?"
20
And he said, "No.
He's out on a call."
I
You know, I
Why don't you just go ahead and
So I did, and then I ran back to my patrol
21
car and they had taken my whip antenna and tied it
22
in a knot.
23
top.
24
the plastic covers, and tied my windshield wiper
25
blades in knots, and so of course I had to write a
We had them bubble gum light bars on
They had taken both the light bars off, or
�23
1
report on that, you know.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
3
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And we didn't know who
4
did it but, you know, a lot of the -- my
5
perspective was a little bit different than Don's,
6
you know.
7
Bottoms and Green Gables, I never was scared to go
8
into the Green Gables, and lot of officers were,
9
you know.
When we was talking about the East
They said don't go in there by
10
yourself, you know.
I never was bothered, you
11
know.
12
was respectable to them and, you know, we got to
13
knowing a lot of the blacks and we always said hi
14
to them and I always treated people like I wanted
15
to be treated myself or somebody would treat my
16
parents, and so I treated them with that kind of
17
respect.
They was always respectful to me because I
18
I told them one time, and I always figured,
19
you know, that if I could give them a break, you
20
know, I'd give them a break, but if I told them to
21
do something they'd better do it, and they knew
22
that I was in control and so, you know, that was
23
the difference back then.
24
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
25
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
You know, we didn't
�24
1
have a lot but we could give people breaks, you
2
know, especially on family disturbances, you know.
3
Nowdays, you know, they want everybody arrested,
4
you know.
5
know, you have to arrest them, you know.
6
somebody slaps the other person and they leave a
7
mark, well, you gotta take them in and arrest them
8
and they have to spend the night in jail and that
9
makes for hostility between husbands and wives,
10
In fact, they've got the law where, you
If
you know.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
12
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
I know they think
13
they're doing good but, you know, there's a
14
pecking order.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, yes.
16
(10:09:58)
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
This is Don.
But Ron's
18
right, you know, it used to be that you didn't
19
arrest them, all you'd do is take care of the
20
problem, and -- but, see, even the wives don't
21
want the guy arrested because that's their
22
paycheck.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
25
Right.
So -- and then, of
course, if the, and I had this come up, the lady
�25
1
was the one that hit him with a frying pan so then
2
I had to take her in and in front of her kids and
3
everything.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
5
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And so that's where a
6
lot of officers are getting hurt is on this
7
domestic battery, that they're making us arrest
8
one of them.
9
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
So I know they're
11
trying to do better for battered women, but, you
12
know, sometimes you just have to just set them
13
down, take him out of there, make sure he doesn't
14
come back that night.
15
Go ahead, Ron.
16
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Well, and a lot of
17
that, you know, I mean, we was talking about the
18
blacks from Mississippi.
19
Reverend Sims.
20
church down there at 13th and Connecticut and they
21
had a lot of the Mississippi blacks, you know, was
22
down there and, man, was they ever religious, you
23
know, and, you know, but then you had the North
24
Lawrence people, you know, and there was North
25
Lawrence blacks.
They came up here with
You know, he was pastor of the
Then on Sixth Street, you know,
�26
1
there was some blacks over there, so there was a
2
little hostility between certain ones and they
3
didn't like to mingle but, you know, they got
4
together later on and they calmed down.
5
And the same thing was with Haskell.
You
6
know, you'd get out there and you had the
7
different tribes.
8
the difference between a Crow and a Comanche, you
9
know.
I had a real hard time telling
The only ones I knew was the Alaskan, you
10
know, the Eskimos, because they would be walking
11
around, it would be five below zero and they'd be
12
walking around in short-sleeved shirts, but, you
13
know, there was a lot of hostility out there.
14
There was a lot of knife fights, a lot of --
15
between tribes, and there was hostility, got to be
16
real bad, and we had some on the Lawrence Police
17
Department and we had one that he was a great big
18
guy, he used to play football out there at
19
Haskell, and he walked in one night out there at
20
Lawrence Memorial Hospital and here was a little
21
guy, but he was a different tribe.
22
Comanche and our officer was a Crow.
23
He was a
Boy, I mean to tell you, he come off that
24
table and they was trying to stitch him up and,
25
you know, we had problems, you know, so finally I
�27
1
told the officer, I said, "Go ahead and leave,"
2
and as soon as he left, you know, the guy calmed
3
down and they sewed him up and we took him to
4
jail.
5
And we had some of them that took great pride
6
in what they could drink.
7
of beer and pour a pint of wood grain alcohol, 180
8
proof, in that and then drink it and then they was
9
going, you know, bonkers, and they'd fight
10
11
They'd take a pitcher
everybody.
But Haskell out there had a policy that if
12
they came back -- this was before; they was in a
13
trade school, Haskell was a trade school and not a
14
junior college like they are now, but they
15
couldn't have cars and they'd go out and get drunk
16
and they'd come in the dorm out there and the
17
Haskell administration, one of the dorm guards
18
would see them and could smell alcohol on them and
19
then he'd call us and say, "This guy's drunk.
20
want him arrested."
21
We
So we would have to arrest him, put him in
22
jail for drunk.
Next day, why, Haskell was down
23
there and they paid the $25 bond for him and they
24
put him, they brought his clothes with him and
25
they'd packed him up and they sent him back to his
�28
1
reservation, and -- but if they even smelled beer
2
on them, and they had to be in by 10:00 o'clock at
3
night, and if they wasn't in by 10:00 o'clock,
4
why, they'd call and say, "We want him arrested,"
5
you know.
6
So then they turned around and one of them
7
decided that they was going to contest it and then
8
they said the police officers weren't to be
9
allowed to enforce laws on reservations, and since
10
Haskell was a reservation and Lawrence police
11
didn't have the authority to go out there and
12
arrest them, so -- and the court said, you're
13
right.
14
So then the FBI had to come out, if they had
15
a drunk call, why, the FBI had to go out there and
16
when -- we had to go out --
17
18
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
That lasted about that
long.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
I can imagine.
20
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Well, then they made us
21
all, yes, then they made us all Deputy U.S.
22
Marshals.
23
(10:16:14)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
to --
Okay, so give you the authority
�29
1
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
So we could enforce the
federal laws, see.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
4
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And then they had to
5
get, they had to have Congress come to Lawrence
6
and Lawrence had to accept the authority, you
7
know, and once Lawrence accepted the authority out
8
there, well, then we could go out there and
9
enforce city laws, and then we didn't need the
10
U.S. Marshals badges, you know, but, you know, we
11
had all this different parties.
12
During the riots in '69 and '70, you know, we
13
had the white supremacists, you know, we had the
14
John Birch Society, we had all these vigilantes.
15
Lot of the vigilantes, you know, was individuals
16
that said, you know, hey, I've got this big group
17
of guys, we're going to come in and we're going
18
to, you know, shoot all the blacks, you know.
19
We had black people that, you know, didn't
20
want to be called black, they wanted to be called
21
negroes, you know.
22
N word, but, you know, you couldn't say "boy" or
23
you couldn't say "gal," you know, that was
24
insults.
25
None of them wanted to be the
And our human relations director at the time
�30
1
--
2
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Ray Samuel?
3
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
No, before Ray.
He
4
wrote a book, and this was during the riots, and
5
he was -- the book was named "How to Be a Hot Cat"
6
-- no, "How to Be a Cool Cat on a Hot Tin Roof,"
7
and he had all of the police officers, he give
8
each one of us the book and it was just, you know,
9
he'd typed it up and, you know, what you're
10
supposed to do, you know.
11
know, wanted to be called negroes and, you know,
12
and some of them wanted to be called blacks, some
13
of them wanted to be called colored, you know.
14
Some of the blacks, you
And the Indians, you know, they had certain
15
things they didn't want to be called, you know,
16
Indians and, you know, Eskimos didn't want to be
17
known as Indian, they wanted to be called Eskimos,
18
and Comanche was insulted if you called them
19
anything but Comanches, you know, and -- but vice
20
versa, you know, there was a lot of hostility
21
between the different groups of individuals.
22
had K.U. students, you know, we had SDS, Indians,
23
we had AIM out there, you know, AIM had come into
24
town, and we had all these individuals coming into
25
Lawrence because it was a melting pot.
We
�31
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And when you bring in
3
all these outsiders, and they was ones that was
4
causing all the hostilities, you know, and when
5
you got that kind of a melting pot in here, you
6
know, everybody was against everybody.
7
(10:19:54)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Right.
With you all in the
small Lawrence police force caught in the middle
10
trying to keep them all apart.
11
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, right, and here we
12
are, you know, we've got 35 officers at one time
13
out there in front of the high school, we
14
confronted 250 people, and we all lined up there
15
and everything else, and there was 18 officers.
16
We called in every officer we could get ahold of,
17
the night shift, midnight, swings, day shift.
18
even took them out of TSB.
19
Sheriff's Office.
20
there, we had detectives out there on the line.
21
There was 18 of us, and the only way that you can
22
make an arrest, you know, you couldn't, because if
23
you made an arrest you was going to have to take
24
two of them people and take them out, take the
25
person that you arrested to jail.
We
We called the
We had sheriff's deputy out
�32
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And on several
3
different incidences we had to make an arrest, you
4
know.
5
the back seat, one in the front seat with him, and
6
he drove them to jail from the high school
7
football game.
8
know -- and we had the students come in and try
9
and attack us and we set up a skirmish line and we
One time Lieutenant Harris, we put three in
They was all students, but, you
10
had to, actually had to hold the officers back,
11
but once we formed the skirmish line we wouldn't
12
let anybody come through and we walked them out
13
and that was the way we was trained, you know.
14
But then you had the hippies, the yippies,
15
the street people.
16
we was down there at the Watkins Museum this woman
17
come up there and she said, "Was there really
18
people out looking, you know, to shoot hippies?"
19
20
You know, the other night when
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
I think she asked you,
didn't she?
21
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, uh-huh.
22
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And we said, you know,
23
we don't -- we didn't know them, we couldn't pin,
24
but we heard about them, you know, and we was
25
trying to be aware of them, and, you know, but it
�33
1
was a scary time.
2
When we had the curfew --
3
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
4
5
This is Don, but she
says, "But I was a hippy."
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
But, you know, we set
6
up, the Lawrence Police Department set up -- we
7
played basketball.
8
went out and played with the hippies, you know,
9
against the hippies.
10
We set up a basketball, and we
The only real bad time we had was with the
11
Indians, you know, because, man, them are damn
12
near pro basketball players and they'll run you to
13
death.
14
court and just watched them, you know, because --
15
and they can play basketball, and they're
16
semi-pro, you know.
17
called ourselves The Pigs, and, you know, they had
18
T-shirts that said Hippies on them, you know, and
19
then we had the blacks, you know, and they're all
20
good basketball players.
21
I stand right there in the middle of the
Hell, they beat the -- and we
We went down to the Community Center and we
22
challenged them all.
We got our butts beat most
23
of the time, you know, but we had good times.
24
got to knowing people, and I think that's one of
25
the biggest problems they have today, you know, is
We
�34
1
the police officers don't go in and talk to
2
people, you know.
3
shops.
4
talking to people, you know, about what was going
5
on in the community and, you know, nowdays, you
6
know, they want to put GPSs on the police cars and
7
say, well hey, you know, you're out of your
8
district and you gotta do this and you gotta do
9
that.
We used to go in the coffee
I could learn more in a coffee shop
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
11
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
So they don't really
12
talk to people.
13
policing that we did, you know, and they're
14
running them so fast and so hard, you know, that
15
the officers don't have time to know the
16
community.
17
(10:24:27)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
They don't go out and do the
Right.
Yes, I was going to ask
19
you, based on some things you said earlier about,
20
you know, treating people fairly and with respect.
21
It sounds to me like, and I was going to ask you
22
what kind of relationship there was between the
23
Police Department and the African-American
24
community, but it sounds like you treated them
25
like any other community in town, you got to know
�35
1
people, you treated them with respect, you helped
2
them solve their problems when you could help out
3
and you had the leeway to do that, you know, you
4
got involved in community activities like playing
5
basketball, so I take it that that helped
6
alleviate a lot of the potential tensions, until,
7
--
8
THE SPEAKER:
9
MR. ARNOLD:
It did.
-- of course, you got into the
10
late '60s, when then there were so many groups
11
with so many different agendas you all were just
12
kind of caught in the middle of it all.
13
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, you know -- this
14
is Don -- but you really look at it and when you
15
treat a person fairly and they know that you have,
16
that you gave them a break, later on if you have
17
to arrest them they won't give you that much
18
trouble, you know, but if you bum rap them, you
19
know, they understand that.
20
don't understand that you just can't make up a
21
charge, you'll lose it in court, and they have a
22
right.
23
You know, people
That's what I was saying the other night down
24
there, you know, but nobody has a right to resist
25
arrest.
If I make an arrest you got a right to
�36
1
beat me in court, you know, sue me, go to an
2
attorney, sue me, everything, but you don't have a
3
right to resist arrest, and that's where a lot of
4
their problems are today is they resist arrest.
5
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And they think you
6
violate their civil rights.
What civil rights?
7
They, they don't know what civil rights are.
8
think they do, but, you know, they say, "Oh, my
9
civil rights have been violated."
10
rights?
11
You know, you can't resist arrest.
They
What civil
You know, the officer made an arrest.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
13
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
What don't you
14
understand about that?
15
along with the officer, and if he does bum rap you
16
or he makes a fatal mistake, you know, of making a
17
bad arrest you can sue him, you can sue the city,
18
you know, he can lose his job, but if you resist
19
arrest, hey, he just made a lawful arrest.
20
what I'm saying?
21
(10:27:10)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
You know, if you just go
See
Did you all try to
23
establish relationships with particular leaders
24
within the African-American community or within
25
the Indian American community or, for that matter,
�37
1
within the white community just to try and help
2
you, you know, maintain good relations kind of
3
with the folks in the communities in general?
4
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
No.
You have to
5
remember, we was just little guys ourselves and so
6
I made friends with the guys out on the street,
7
but like the leaders or the ones that wanted to be
8
leaders, they didn't want to be friends of mine,
9
they wanted to be friends of the city commissioner
10
or the mayor, stuff like that there, so basically
11
the person out on the street, the guy that I dealt
12
with all the time, that's the one I was working
13
with.
14
you know, they probably knew me.
15
They didn't know me from Adam but -- or,
I think the leaders knew me but they didn't
16
want to talk to me, they wanted to talk to
17
somebody that had authority and could do something
18
for them, and, you know, that's one of the
19
problems that you have.
20
what they want.
21
the swimming pool.
22
town that was open to the public except for the
23
blacks, that was up here on Sixth and Florida, but
24
that was a private, that wasn't by the city, so
25
the city opened up a swimming pool out there at
They really don't know
You know, they knew they liked
We had one swimming pool in
�38
1
23rd and Kasold.
2
at.
That's not where the blacks was
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
4
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Blacks was downtown,
5
East Bottoms, so they had to get transportation
6
all the way out there, but they did make the
7
swimming pool part of it but then it took time.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
9
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
10
don't want time.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
A lot of times people
Right.
They hired Ray Samuel
13
as their human relations guy and he brought a lot
14
of civility and he would try to talk to them about
15
the police officers and also the police officers
16
about them and stuff.
17
the one that really calmed them down quite a bit.
18
I think Ray was probably
But, see, they don't, some of those leaders
19
didn't have control.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
These other people that
22
was making the firebombs, stuff like that, they
23
didn't have control of those, so -- but they was
24
going off that hype.
25
It was like the colonel of the Highway
�39
1
Patrol.
2
THE SPEAKER:
Albott.
3
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Albott.
He come in, he
4
said, "I settled Lawrence."
He came up here at
5
noon up on Oread Street and talked to a couple
6
people.
7
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
8
smoking marijuana cigarettes.
9
10
11
12
13
Hippies sitting there
(Interrupting)
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
He wasn't out there at
night -MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
the problem?"
And he says, "What's
I'm Ron.
14
(Interrupting)
15
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
-- Leonard Harrison?
Uh-huh.
Leonard Harrison at the
18
time, you know, he had these young guys, and he
19
was a radical.
20
guys, like Steven and, and --
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Butch.
22
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Don't use names.
He was a radical, and these young
No.
23
But he had these young guys at different places in
24
town where all the young kids were at, you know,
25
the Ballard Center, the Afro House, the swimming
�40
1
pool, and he stirred them all up, see, and he kept
2
them all stirred up and then they would meet
3
places, see, and then like they said, you know,
4
they got them to join the Black Panthers, you
5
know, and they're a terrorist group, and they did
6
that, see.
7
We had everything in here.
We even, you
8
know, with the university up there, they brought
9
in the Ku Klux Klan, you know, set up here at Hoch
10
Auditorium, and they had to send us up there to
11
protect them and halfway through they opened the
12
doors, you know, for all these people to come
13
rushing in and then they said we're only going to
14
keep the doors open for 15 minutes and then we
15
shut the doors and we keep everybody out.
16
Hey, I said, you know, "Whatever you do,"
17
Hoch Auditorium, if you've been out there, the
18
doors open out, they don't open in, so they're
19
going to shut the doors, you know, and I told
20
them, I said, "you're going to have problems."
21
I told every one of my officers up there -- I
22
was the officer in charge -- I said, "You're going
23
to have problems.
24
the outside of that door, you know, stay on the
25
inside."
Whatever you do, don't get on
Then they was going to chain them shut,
�41
1
2
see, and then lock them.
Well, once they did that here's all these
3
kids and they was trying to push in and the crowd
4
was trying to get in and they was pushing girls
5
like this up against the door, you know, and they
6
was trying to shove them through the door, and I
7
just knew that they was going to stomp all, you
8
know, these kids up there, and they said, well,
9
you know, that's how we protect them.
10
You're not protecting them kids, but if we
11
had an officer on the outside there they would
12
have killed the officer, you know, push them clear
13
through the glass doors, you know.
14
And then we had to walk them all the way out
15
to their bus so they could take them out of there,
16
you know, just real fast because they'd parked
17
them out back, you know, and we had to get into a
18
riot formation so we could protect them.
19
them people up there?
20
terrorist activities, you know?
21
well, you know, these kids gotta learn that these
22
people, what they're about.
23
(10:33:56)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Klan?
Why have
So they talk about their
And they said,
And "these people" were the
�42
1
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
4
Huh?
This was the Klan was the people
you were talking about?
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
And they set up
5
there, you know, and they was talking about the
6
blacks and, you know, the Jews and everything
7
else, you know, and they're basically just a
8
terrorist organization.
9
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
11
remember, we don't --
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
14
clarify.
And you have to
This is Don again, just to
Go ahead.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, this is Don.
You
15
have to remember that we have to protect the good,
16
the bad, the ugly, and when you're standing in
17
between these two they know that we are there to
18
protect them and so they'll say other things, you
19
know.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And they agitate the
22
other group and the other group going to agitate
23
back.
24
You know, during the riots in Chicago they was
25
throwing urine and feces on the officers and when
We're standing there in line and stuff.
�43
1
the officers swung with their clubs, well, they
2
got pictures of them doing that, see, and so, you
3
know, they tell you not to do anything, they'll
4
spit in your face, you're not supposed to -- so
5
they gave us shields finally, but it's that type
6
of person, or people, that you have to protect and
7
then we get a bad reputation because --
8
9
10
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
You're just doing your
jobs.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Right, we're doing, but
they should not let them come into town.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
13
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Go ahead.
I'm Ron.
Ron.
In '69 and
14
'70 they used to, you know, and especially on the
15
Chicago 7 up there, you know, the rioters come in
16
and they are prepared.
17
the camera.
18
Everything they want is
They want to play up the camera.
They used to take these little bags of blood,
19
see, and they would hold them in their hands.
As
20
soon as the officer raised up his billy club like
21
he was going to hit them, you know, or if he did
22
hit them they would take that little plastic bag
23
and go like that and hit their forehead and the
24
blood would run down their face, see, and the
25
cameras, you know, that was -- the newspapers and
�44
1
the TV cameras, boy, you know, everybody likes
2
that.
3
They get them all riled up and they bring
4
them into town, and that's what we had in '69 and
5
'70.
6
in, and then when they went into third degree
7
martial law, where they shut down the whole city,
8
you know -- did you learn about that?
9
10
You know, we had all these outsiders coming
MR. ARNOLD:
No.
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
They had a curfew from
11
7:00 o'clock at night till 7:00 in the morning.
12
You couldn't be out on the streets.
13
be walking on the city sidewalk.
14
your yard or your front porch, in your house, but
15
you couldn't be out on the city sidewalk or the
16
city roadway, and if your wife went to Kansas City
17
and she got back after 7:00 o'clock at night they
18
wouldn't let her into town.
19
around --
20
(Interrupting)
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
You couldn't
You could be in
She had to turn
The Highway Patrol took
22
care of -- this is Don.
Highway Patrol and the
23
National Guards took care of the outer perimeter
24
of town, and then we had National Guardsmen in
25
with our officers in the city, so, you know, they
�45
1
filled up the patrol car and they brought deuce
2
and a halfs in to haul prisoners and, you know,
3
stuff like that.
4
But you have to remember, we never had enough
5
officers.
We could block the street but we
6
couldn't block the sidewalks on either side, you
7
know, and that's standing with our arms out,
8
because there's probably eight of us, eight
9
officers, and if you brought in any other shift,
10
you know, then they didn't have any time off.
11
guys didn't have any time off, so that was, it was
12
just, you know, during the time, and matter of
13
fact, in April they brought in the National Guard.
14
(10:38:35)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
Our
This was April of '69 or '70?
'70 probably?
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
'70.
'70, yes.
Uh-huh.
And that's
20
when they firebombed the Union building, and we
21
didn't know it until we got up there.
22
a fire truck and we was up there on Louisiana
23
trying to find out -- we knew which house it had
24
came from but we was trying to get that, and they
25
brought up deuce and a halfs loaded with, full of
They'd shot
�46
1
troops and stuff, and then down there 15th and
2
Tennessee they closed off the road.
3
trash cans and they had rolled nails out there in
4
the road and Captain McClure brought me and I
5
think it was like a platoon of guys up there and
6
said go down there and open up that road.
7
(10:39:34)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Right.
They had put
Now, I know this unrest,
some of it was probably anti-war related, some of
10
it was related to racial grievances, but to you
11
all as police officers was it just one kind of set
12
of turmoil and violence, it didn't make much
13
difference to you which group was behind it, it
14
was just a problem you had to deal with?
15
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
I mean, you
16
know, you had anti-war, you had civil rights, you
17
had people coming into town that wasn't the local
18
people but because it was going on they came into
19
town to raise Cain and, you know, they had the
20
Vortex, was a --
21
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Newspaper.
22
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
-- underground
23
newspaper up there.
They told them how to make
24
grenades.
25
hot wax and you roll it with BBs and then you
You take a M-80 and you put, dip it in
�47
1
2
throw it at the police officers.
You string piano wire between the buildings;
3
when they chase you, you know, it would cut them
4
up, cut up the police officers.
5
of that stuff, you know.
6
There was a lot
They put, on Bill Garrett, they put out a
7
wanted poster dead or alive on him, you know, and
8
they used the picture that the Journal-World was
9
using to know your police officer in town.
You
10
know, that's the picture that they used on Bill
11
Garrett.
12
So, yes, you know, they keep you up during
13
the day and the night and lot of times we was
14
getting like 24 hours, you know, we'd go out and
15
sleep at the high school on wrestling mats and
16
they'd wake you up every hour to go out and stand
17
in the hallway while the kids changed around, then
18
they'd give you about half an hour, an hour to go
19
home and shower, shave, and come on back, so --
20
(10:41:51)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
up the Klan earlier.
23
interviewed have made mention of a Klan presence
24
in Lawrence in the mid 1960s.
25
that was visible to you all --
Let me ask you, you have brought
A couple of people I've
Was that something
�48
1
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
No.
-- in the police force?
They had -- this is
4
Ron.
5
They was mainly out of, down around Ottawa,
6
Garnett.
7
would tell us that they got the Ku Klux Klan and
8
they're going to, vigilantes, you know, "I've got
9
a group of people," you know, and that was just to
10
11
They had what they call John Birch Society.
A lot of them was fake.
You know, they
scare people.
But the citizens of Lawrence was scared.
A
12
lot of the business owners, when we had a curfew
13
down there one night we had got a call down in the
14
800 block of Mass and there was a black guy
15
walking with a sack and could be a firebomb, and
16
we went flying down there, you know, and I was
17
stopping there talking to him, and this was during
18
curfew, see.
19
He wasn't even supposed to be out.
Nobody was supposed to be out, and I got this
20
real funny feeling, you know, and believe it or
21
not the hair was standing up on the back of my
22
head because I knew that there was people watching
23
me and I knew that there was probably guns pointed
24
at me while I'm sitting there talking to this guy,
25
and, you know, there was three of us police
�49
1
officers sitting there, and all of a sudden, you
2
know, out of the corner of my eye I see this one
3
guy step out of the dark corner of the building,
4
see, and I knew him, and he was a business owner
5
and he'd blackened out his face with military, you
6
know, camouflage and he had a black stocking cap
7
on, black clothes on.
8
on the side of him, and he's protecting his
9
business, you know, and he said, you know,
He had this great big knife
10
"There's a bunch of us guys up here," and I was
11
looking and I could see people, you know, up in
12
windows, you know, and I knew that there was guns
13
up there.
14
But this black guy, he was walking down the
15
street with a sack.
16
curfew.
17
was in the maintenance and he cleaned classrooms
18
up there and that was his sack lunch, and he got
19
up to K.U. and he reported for duty, you know, and
20
they said, "Hey, this is curfew.
21
supposed to be out, you know, go back home; you're
22
not even supposed to be up here," see.
23
He didn't know about the
He went up to K.U. because he cleaned, he
You're not
He said, "Well, you know, I come up here for
24
my job."
The university's closed.
So he was
25
walking back home and in his sack he had his
�50
1
2
lunch.
But it could have been, you know -- it come
3
real close to somebody probably shooting him.
4
he would have stopped and lit up a cigarette, you
5
know, with a lighter, you know, flicked a Bic or
6
something to light a cigarette there was no doubt
7
in my mind he'd have probably got shot.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
If
Wow.
And that tension, you
10
know, right there is the type of thing that was
11
going on at that time.
12
all the way around.
13
(10:45:56)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
It was just really tense
When did that finally start to
15
kind of resolve itself or to die out?
16
of brought all this to an end finally that tamped
17
down all this tension and the turmoil and the
18
violence?
19
20
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
you mean?
What kind
Okay, during the riots,
This is Don.
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Did it just kind of burn
22
itself out because people eventually just
23
exhausted themselves or --
24
25
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
What happened was
April we had the K.U. fire, okay, and they brought
�51
1
in the National Guards.
2
three days.
3
Then -- that was like for
Then after that it was July and July was at
4
the high school and also at nighttime they
5
firebombed the white house up there on Oread
6
Street.
7
Rick Dowdell got shot, so that's when they was
8
going to try to kill a police officer.
9
when they ambushed Kenny and them down here on
10
Pennsylvania, so then Nick Rice -- let's see, I
11
made detective in July so Nick Rice was, I was a
12
detective when we went up there.
13
there at Watkins Museum, that was in July.
Yes.
Wasn't it July?
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, it was.
July
That's
My photo down
Okay.
And we went up there to
16
investigate his shooting and that's when we got up
17
there and I got hit with a brick, so -- but, you
18
know, they firebombed Judge Gray's house.
19
Johnson, you know, got shot down there on Ninth
20
Street.
21
22
23
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
That was Ron.
Mildred
Dan Young's house.
I'm Ron.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Afro House, you know,
24
it was down there.
They claimed that one of the
25
guys got shot on the front porch, you know, and --
�52
1
but he would have had to been on his hands and
2
knees, because he was shot from downward into his
3
legs, so they thought it was somebody maybe high
4
up on the second floor had shot the gun.
5
You know, there was just turmoil.
They
6
firebombed the satellite Union up there on 15th
7
and they was just building it.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
9
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
They put six sticks of
10
dynamite, they put a fuse in there, they did a old
11
time, to light it they put heads of matches on
12
there and put the fuse in there, but they put a
13
cigar in there instead of a cigarette.
14
if you don't puff on it it goes out, whereas a
15
regular cigarette will burn down and ignite the
16
fuse.
17
A cigar,
Summerfield Hall, they firebombed that, or
18
that was an explosion.
19
Ohio Street, that was another one.
20
Weathermen coming into town.
21
lot of intelligence throughout the community.
22
have people come in and tell you this and tell you
23
that, so there was a lot of intelligence coming in
24
but, you know, you have to prove what you know.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Bank of America up here on
Right.
We had
You know, you get a
You
�53
1
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
You know, you just
2
can't jump to the gun on it, but when Skinny
3
Williams got shot, that was Sergeant [Eugene]
4
Williams, down there, they was going to try to
5
kill a police officer and they had a lot of
6
outside people coming in on that.
7
The call that came in said that there was
8
four or five people marching with guns down the
9
street and so, you know, they sent four officers
10
down there, because we knew that they was going
11
to, and they was going to walk in, so they went
12
down there.
13
They started, got off at 11th Street and
14
started walking in and they came around a corner
15
there, and that would have been at 10th, Skinny
16
got shot as he came around by the big cedar tree
17
and everything opened up, just bang, bang, bang,
18
bang, bang, bang.
19
Then that group left.
The officers came
20
around.
Lemon came around 11th Street over there
21
by that baseball field and as he did they opened
22
up on him so he got out and he was shooting at
23
them and Bob Merkel was in a vehicle and he went
24
past them, drove on up and went right on up to
25
where the other ambush had been set up.
He got
�54
1
out of the car and he went up there and trying to
2
help Skinny and, you know, they seen his vehicle
3
there and they had headrests in there and they
4
thought there was an officer was in there and they
5
just blew the heck out of that car.
6
was all shot up.
7
I mean, it
I went down there and collected up ammunition
8
later on and stuff and there was all kinds of
9
stuff down there, double ought buck, you know.
10
They was prepared for war.
11
officer that we got shot at that time.
12
(10:52:50)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
15
But that was the only
That's amazing considering how
much was going on.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, you know, and like
16
I say, there wasn't very many officers at the
17
time.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
19
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
So would you -This is Ron.
But we
20
had officers, young officers that come in, just,
21
one came back from Vietnam and he was behind
22
Skinny when Skinny got shot and next morning he
23
came into the chief's office and laid his badge on
24
the table and said, you know, "In Vietnam I knew
25
who I was fighting but I don't know over here."
�55
1
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And they, later on
their intelligence, they had the KBI come in.
3
(10:53:37)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
5
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Kansas Bureau of Investigation?
Yes, and do an
6
investigation and later on they found out that
7
their intention was to kill a police officer and
8
cut his head off, put it on a spear, hang it in
9
front of the Afro House.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Wow.
11
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And that's lot of it
12
from outside the community, you know, so, you
13
know, it was like Russell Means, you know, with
14
AIM, you know, he was in here and he was stirring
15
the Indians up and there was just a lot of
16
turmoil.
17
(10:54:14)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
So did it finally kind of die
19
down because a lot of these outsiders maybe moved
20
on and the agitators sort of left town and --
21
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, and what they did
22
was they did brought in Menningers [Menninger
23
Foundation in Topeka] and they took a lot of the
24
different segments of the community and they took
25
them over there to Menningers and they had a
�56
1
set-down powwow.
2
First thing they did was they set everybody
3
down, they had police officers, they had blacks,
4
they had hippies, they had city commissioners,
5
they had business people, they had vigilantes,
6
supposed to be, you know, they had all these
7
different segments of the community and they
8
brought them in at night and they brought out a
9
fifth of whiskey and set it down and everybody
10
kind of fixed them a drink and then they had a big
11
powwow and everybody sat around and tried to
12
figure out what was going on.
13
It really was an eye opener for the police
14
officers because we felt like, you know, it was us
15
against them, and come to find out, you know, that
16
they all -- we was the front line and, you know,
17
to get to the city commissioners they had to go
18
through us and they really didn't have anything
19
against the police officers, what they was against
20
was the establishment.
21
(10:55:40)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
the establishment --
Right.
24
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
25
MR. ARNOLD:
You were just symbols of
Right.
-- because you were the ones
�57
1
2
that they were on the front lines with?
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
You know, even though
3
we were sympathetic to their cause, you know, we
4
couldn't allow them to, you know, destroy the
5
establishment, you know, by tearing up the
6
businesses or tearing up, you know, the people or
7
shooting people, just like, you know, we couldn't
8
have the vigilantes shooting our community, you
9
know, we couldn't have them coming in and
10
11
destroying things.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
This is Don.
Police
12
officers can't lose.
13
in chaos and so that's what, you know, people
14
going to have to, they have to realize is that,
15
you know, if you can't handle it with one officer
16
you handle it with two or three or four.
17
If we lose the community is
We had to throw gas.
Like I say, we couldn't
18
block the street and the sidewalk so we had to,
19
when they came up against us we threw gas, you
20
know, tear gas, and that's basically what you
21
gotta do, but if you lose, you know, you lose
22
civility.
23
(10:57:07)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
All social order is gone.
Right.
�58
1
2
3
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And, you know, people
get killed.
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
The meeting you referred
4
to, Ron, at Menningers, do you remember what the
5
time frame was?
6
or do you remember when that was?
7
8
9
10
11
And that was like in late 1970,
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
It was probably, see --
because we had April, July, September.
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
It was in the
wintertime.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, I think it was
12
even January of '71.
13
(10:57:37)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
I think so.
16
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And I know the one I
'71?
Okay.
17
was in we had about four police officers and there
18
was two city commissioners and --
19
20
MR. ARNOLD:
So this was a series of
meetings?
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
Okay.
Well, it was just a
24
two-day meeting.
It was on a Saturday and Sunday
25
and you stayed over Saturday night at a hotel,
�59
1
see, and you set down and then they had mediators
2
come in and they was talking about it, and we had
3
some radical blacks.
4
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
What he's talking about
5
-- this is Don -- he had one weekend here, another
6
weekend was different people.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
9
Gotcha.
it out.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
12
And so they could talk
Right.
Because he wasn't in
the same group I was in.
13
(10:58:30)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
And did this seem to have
15
a positive effect in calming things down, just
16
everybody talking out their points of view?
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, apparently it did
18
because if you look at it, you know, we really
19
didn't have that much going on after that.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
22
Right.
to say that it did work.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
25
You know, so you'd have
Yes.
But, you know, and that
was like, you go back to fair housing, you know,
�60
1
you look at it, they never had a, like 1600
2
Haskell, they never had that until they put it
3
down there and they put it down there --
4
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
255 North Michigan.
5
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Okay.
But all of our
6
burglaries went down to that area, out on 23rd
7
Street.
8
here, and our burglaries changed and went on up on
9
Sixth Street.
Then they went 255 North Michigan, up
10
(10:59:37)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
13
14
And when you say they went, this
was as -MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
They had housing
projects.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, they built projects, yes.
16
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
17
know, that's just demographics.
18
going to steal more than rich people are.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
21
And so -- but, you
Poor people are
Sure.
I mean, that's common
sense.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right, yes.
23
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Right?
And, but you
24
mix them in, you mix them in with good people down
25
here and good people out there and stuff and then
�61
1
you have to sort them out, and I think the
2
housing, Lawrence Housing Authority has been doing
3
that more and more, you know.
4
I know one time, just talking about 1600
5
Haskell down here, a gal, K.U. student moved in,
6
moved all of her stuff in, went up to K.U., the
7
next day came back and everything was gone.
8
-- I mean everything in that house.
9
They
When we found out who did it, got a search
10
warrant for her house, went down there and here's
11
all the stuff in her house, see, but we couldn't
12
tell what was hers and what else was -- so they
13
had her come down there, the victim come down
14
there, and the victim came down and said, "That's
15
my toothbrush, that's my hair rollers, that's my"
16
-- you know, and they had completely wiped her
17
out.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
19
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
But it was, the person
20
that did the crime, it was her mom that lived out
21
there, not her.
22
because her mom lived out there, you know, she
23
came into that area and seen this gal leave and
24
said, pshew, burglarized.
25
(11:01:39)
She didn't live out there, but
�62
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Would you say, though, that
2
things like the fair housing and starting to break
3
up the highly segregated areas, along with things
4
like integrating, you know, the new swimming pool
5
that was integrated, were those types of measures,
6
even though they probably came with some
7
challenges, but that they also tended to calm
8
things down just by creating mixing that led to
9
some understanding among people that made Lawrence
10
an easier community to police in certain respects,
11
even while probably introducing new challenges?
12
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
13
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
14
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
That was Ron.
16
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Don, too, yes.
17
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
You keep interrupting.
15
18
This is
Ron.
You want to talk, go ahead.
19
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
No, go ahead.
20
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
It woke up the city
21
commissioners and they knew they had to do things,
22
you know, they started listening and they started
23
-- you know, before they put in like Ray Samuel
24
and Paul, you know, human relations, and they
25
started working more, because they opened their
�63
1
eyes at these meetings, you know, especially at
2
Menningers and they saw what they was actually
3
asking for, you know, and as long as we kept
4
outsiders out.
5
the major problems, you know.
6
professional people.
You know, the outsiders are always
These are
7
InCAR came up here, you know.
8
there in San Jose, California, you know.
9
professional, InCAR was a professional --
10
11
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
They was out
They're
Can we stop here a
minute.
12
(Off the record)
13
(11:04:13)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
15
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Go ahead, Ron, and continue.
I think that brought
16
about a lot of the changes, you know, like the
17
swimming pools, you know, they put them down here.
18
They put in a lot more parks.
19
listening to the community, especially the blacks
20
and the other people in the community, you know.
21
They started
In this fair housing, you know, they brought
22
them in.
I know even for lower wage police
23
officers, you know, we got some housing, you know,
24
too.
25
the Lawrence Police Department we was only making
I was out there -- when I first started with
�64
1
$385 a month, and, you know, we was barely keeping
2
our head above water and we worked as much
3
overtime as we could and then if they had special
4
needs, you know, or security of some sort we
5
worked them, you know, to try and keep it up, but
6
I think that was the biggest change, you know, in
7
the city commissioners, you know.
8
I know the city commissioners that I was with
9
over there at Menningers really got an eye opener,
10
you know, and it was an eye opener for me because
11
I thought it was between me and them, see.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
13
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And I thought they was
14
challenging me and, you know, they kept calling us
15
pigs and, you know, saying, you know, that we was
16
MFs and, you know, that was a direct insult to me,
17
you know, so really what they was trying to do was
18
get to the establishment, you know, and changes.
19
(11:06:15)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And it sounds like what
21
those meetings accomplished is that it kind of got
22
the outside agitators out of the picture and put
23
the members of the community together and
24
discussed the real problems of the community that
25
could be addressed so everybody kind of understood
�65
1
what the frustrations were and try to do some
2
things to fix them.
3
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
And, you know,
4
the vigilantes, the supposedly vigilantes, you
5
know, that said they had all these people and
6
everything else, that was an eye opener for them,
7
too, you know, because they was sitting there
8
thinking, you know, that we was picking on them,
9
you know, and they wanted to come in and shoot
10
everybody that they didn't like, you know, and we
11
told them, you know, that isn't what we need, you
12
know.
13
(11:07:10)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
How would you characterize these
15
vigilantes.
16
and what were their motives?
17
of law and order and they were going to go after
18
anybody who was causing problems?
19
I mean, what kind of groups were they
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Were they just kind
Well, there was a lot
20
of hostility, you know.
When you're saying
21
vigilantes, you know, a lot of them was white.
22
Most of them was either construction workers or
23
they was anti, you know, blacks, anti-hippies, you
24
know.
25
and talked to him, you know, later on and I got to
They had -- I know of one, and I sat down
�66
1
know him pretty good and he said, you know, I
2
don't have any other vigilantes, I was just going
3
to get my gun and go out there and shoot some of
4
them, you know, and -- but I don't have anybody,
5
you know, that was going to go with me, you know,
6
but he says, you know, I looked at it, you know,
7
that, you know, it was a scare tactic, I was gonna
8
scare them all, you know, and if they thought I
9
was a bad guy, you know, and was going to do them
10
what they was doing to me, you know, and vice
11
versa, you know, it had, you know -- I had a black
12
guy that, you know, he went over and he was buying
13
guns in Kansas City, buying ammunition, you know,
14
and he was talking up how bad he was and he was
15
gonna shoot up everybody and everything else and
16
he finally said, you know, "Hey, you know, it's
17
just a play, you know, and I'm just a player."
18
said, "If they can try and scare me I can try and
19
scare them."
20
He
But, you know, when you don't know it at the
21
time, you know, you know, it's kind of like the
22
old saying, you know, when you're up to your neck
23
in alligators it's hard to remember that your
24
first initiative was, response was to drain the
25
swamp, you know.
We just had had all these bad
�67
1
feelings in town and people was just really
2
creating more problems when they was trying to
3
scare one another, you know, and it's kind of hard
4
to separate the two, you know, what's really,
5
what's true and what's false.
6
(11:10)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Till everybody sits down
8
together and starts actually talking to each
9
other.
10
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, uh-huh, and you
11
see some accomplishments, you know, like the, you
12
know, the swimming pool wasn't a big thing but in
13
a way it was, you know.
14
day a year, you know, when they was getting ready
15
to dump all the water, you know, they would allow
16
you to, blacks to come in; now it's dogs, you
17
know, so you see it, you know.
18
blacks swimming, you know, but, you know, like one
19
day a year they could have the blacks go swimming,
20
and now they allow dogs to do it, see, and it's an
21
insult to them, you know, as a race.
Before, you know, the one
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
They didn't want
Right.
In Junction City, you
24
know, when I was up, when we was living there, you
25
know, the blacks could go swimming any time and,
�68
1
2
you know, everybody was, it was more segregated.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
I want to say -- this
3
is Don.
I wanted to say that I'm not for sure who
4
was on the City Commission in 1967 but I know that
5
the Police Department got quite a bit of stuff
6
there in '67.
7
Mississippi to get the 911 in Lawrence, Kansas.
8
They had to have a look into the future that that
9
would work, and we was the first one west of the
We was the first town west of the
10
Mississippi to have a 911.
11
But we had good consoles put in in '67 on the
12
Police Department.
13
law in 1967.
14
(11:12:17)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
17
That was a basic 911.
They passed the fair housing
Right.
They got the swimming
pool bond passed in 1967 to build the public pool.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Okay.
But, you know, I
18
know that that, you know, I think you get a lot of
19
people coming through the commissions, you know,
20
so there's a lot of different people that has to
21
talk here or talk there and whatever.
22
Buford Watson didn't come until 1970, so January
23
of '70 he came on.
24
Fraternal Order of Police and we was starting our
25
police negotiations with him because we hadn't
I know that
I was the president of the
�69
1
been getting our fair share of raises and stuff so
2
he stepped into that, I know that, and stuff, but,
3
you know, it seems like it just runs in, every
4
four years.
5
(11:13:20)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
You get different groups
7
come together and some of them accomplish things
8
and some of them tend to be more resistant to
9
change.
10
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Exactly right, and so
11
-- and, you know, me being just a little peon, I
12
couldn't tell you, I know that Ray Wells was the
13
city manager.
14
15
MR. ARNOLD:
He was the city manager in '67,
yes.
16
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
Dick Raney was the mayor.
He
was a member of the City Commission.
19
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
22
MR. ARNOLD:
23
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
24
THE SPEAKER:
25
I know that.
Who?
Dick Raney.
Right.
Who owned the drug store.
Right.
Let me see, I actually have the
names of the other city commissioners.
�70
1
THE SPEAKER:
2
MR. ARNOLD:
3
Black, Donald Metzler.
4
THE SPEAKER:
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
THE SPEAKER:
Of Morton Block?
7
MR. ARNOLD:
-- and John Emick.
8
THE SPEAKER:
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
Black was one of them.
City commissioners were James
Yes, Don.
He was a -- yes.
Clark Morton, --
Uh-huh.
And, you know, Ray Wells was the
city manager.
11
THE SPEAKER:
12
MR. ARNOLD:
City manager.
Milt Allen, who I think was a
13
son or grandson of Phog Allen, was the city
14
attorney.
15
16
THE SPEAKER:
Yes, right.
Yes, that's the
son, Mitt.
17
(11:14:33)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, so that -- but it was
19
interesting that many of them didn't serve more
20
than maybe one or two terms and then they'd turn
21
over and so you'd have another group to come in
22
that might not have been as progressively minded
23
in trying to bring about change, some may have
24
come in after those changes because people decided
25
that's enough change, we want to stop making
�71
1
2
changes for awhile, but -MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, exactly right,
3
and, you know, and I'll tell you something, you
4
know, in first part of '67 we did get some raises,
5
you know, the Police Department did, we got cars
6
that had air conditioning in it, so, you know, but
7
like I say, you think about that, that they looked
8
forward into the future, like the 911 system.
9
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Exactly, yes.
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And so I have to praise
11
those type of guys.
When I came here I didn't
12
know anybody and, you know, that was in '65 and I
13
said, you know, matter of fact, Dick Raney --
14
let's see, the dad -- is this the son or the dad?
15
MR. ARNOLD:
This was the --
16
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Okay.
19
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
The old man --
20
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Because I stopped --
Son.
-- son, yes, I believe.
21
his dad had a Cadillac that had Douglas County R1,
22
you know, and was going out North Second down
23
underneath the underpass there and was speeding
24
and so I stopped him and I didn't know who it was
25
or anything and so the son was driving and dad was
�72
1
in the back seat and so I got his driver's license
2
and stuff and the dad rolls down his window and he
3
says, "Hey, listen," he says, "we're late to a
4
funeral and I told him to speed, get me there,
5
because we're late to a funeral."
6
just, could you just hold his driver's license, go
7
ahead and write him a ticket, we'll come back and
8
get it?"
9
to him.
I said, "No," I says.
He said, "You
I handed it back
I says, "I understand," I said, "but if
10
he speeds again just hit him up side the back of
11
the head."
12
driver's seat was the city commissioner, you know?
13
But yes, they was good people, they was good
14
people.
Who knows the son who was in the
15
(11:17:19)
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Let me ask you one last
17
question.
We've been going for quite awhile now,
18
probably exhausting both of you, but tell me why
19
you think, you know, Junction City that you had
20
come from, and obviously the Fort had a big impact
21
on the fact that it was a fairly mixed community
22
without a whole lot of segregation, why do you
23
think in Lawrence, which also kind of had a
24
diverse influence from the university, but why do
25
you think Lawrence was slower to change than say
�73
1
2
Junction City was?
Any opinions on that?
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, Fort Riley, you
3
know, we had the Tenth Calvary out there and it
4
was blacks.
5
local teams and stuff like this here, and here you
6
apparently didn't have that as much, but I know
7
that --
8
9
They used to play football with the
MR. ARNOLD:
So really I think what you're
getting at probably is there was just a whole lot
10
more racial mixing there and so people kind of
11
knew each other, they treated each other like
12
human beings, whereas here the segregation kind of
13
put everybody in their own community and there
14
wasn't much understanding among each other, which
15
made change harder to come by when you don't
16
understand the other guy?
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
See, if you talk
18
to Verner Newman or Leonard Monroe, I know they
19
was telling about stuff that I had no idea of that
20
had happened and stuff, you know, about racial
21
profiling or racial animosity in town here, that
22
they couldn't do this or they couldn't do that, so
23
I didn't know all that until I started hearing it
24
from them, and those are two guys that I really
25
honor and respect.
�74
1
(11:19:29)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And just to clarify,
3
Verner Newman was a fellow Lawrence police officer
4
and Leonard Monroe ran the --
5
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yep.
6
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
City garage.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
I'll tell you --
9
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
John Shepherd.
10
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
-- city garage.
And Verner
11
Newman, he was a lieutenant when I came here, and
12
when I was sitting outside there waiting, I'd just
13
went through my interview board and I was just
14
sitting outside there and I was just waiting,
15
sweating bullets, and he came out and he says,
16
don't worry, you've got the job, you know, and I
17
just -- big, big relief over me and stuff, and
18
I've never forgotten that, that he didn't have to
19
do that for me, you know, but he just seen I was
20
there, I was just wringing my hands and nervous
21
and stuff and so I've always had a lot of respect
22
for him, you know.
23
(11:20:30)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Yes.
And he was at the time one
of the three African-American officers who were on
�75
1
the force, I think, in that era?
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Right.
3
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
4
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
John Shepard was the --
5
this is Ron.
John Shepard was a sergeant on
6
Lawrence Police Department and --
7
THE SPEAKER:
Who was the --
8
THE SPEAKER:
Smith.
9
THE SPEAKER:
Yes, Smitty.
10
THE SPEAKER:
Uh-huh.
11
THE SPEAKER:
Yes, Smitty.
12
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
But -- and he
13
went to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, and
14
real nice guy, too.
15
shift with him but I worked with Newman and then I
16
worked with Shepard, too, so --
I didn't work on the same
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
18
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And this is Ron, but
19
Lieutenant Newman, you know, they made me
20
sergeant, I went DPS in '71 and I'd made sergeant
21
and they wouldn't pay me my sergeant's pay because
22
I was making more money than sergeants, so I was
23
acting sergeant for 13 months before I could wear
24
my stripes, because I was making the same -- more
25
money than sergeants was so until they could get a
�76
1
pay raise, but Lieutenant Newman was my supervisor
2
one time, they made him a street lieutenant and
3
brought him out on the street, and I got to
4
working with him, and he taught me a lot about
5
being a supervisor and I always admired him.
6
And Sergeant Shepard, you know, was another
7
one that helped me, you know, get through, and we
8
always had good times together and, you know, but
9
one time they sent us down there to Woolworth's at
10
the counter because there was blacks sitting down
11
there at the counter and so I went down there,
12
because they wanted police to come in, and they
13
had a sit-down demonstration down there, and I was
14
talking to Sergeant Shepard and I said, "Man, you
15
know" -- he said, you know, "They won't even serve
16
me if I'm in uniform," and I said, "Well, you and
17
me go down there and we'll have, order coffee, you
18
know, I'll go down there and sit with you."
19
he never ever stirred anything up.
20
no, Ron, don't, don't do that."
21
John,
He'd say, "No,
And another thing, I had a house one time out
22
by me that was for sale and I told John, I said,
23
"Man, you know, this has got a real nice garage
24
and everything, you ought to go over there and buy
25
that, you know."
He said, "They wouldn't sell it
�77
1
to me."
2
said, "Because I'm black."
He said, "I can't buy
3
over in that part of town."
And I said, "You're
4
kidding me?"
5
won't sell it to me."
6
you know, I'll buy it from you."
7
And I said, "How come?"
"No."
You know.
He
He said, "They won't, they
He said, "If you buy it,
And, you know, I didn't have no money, you
8
know, and there was no way in hell I could buy it,
9
because I'd just bought a house, you know, and I
10
thought my house payment, you know, was $150 a
11
month and I didn't know how I was going to make
12
that, you know, but that was kind of an eye opener
13
for me, you know.
14
if you're over in North Lawrence," where he lives
15
today, and, you know -- but he couldn't come over
16
in that part of the town.
And John says, "Well, you know,
17
And later on it mixed up, you know, and it
18
was just like, you know, in the old days, I say
19
the older days, you know.
20
if a husband came home and he was drunk, you know,
21
on Sunday and his wife was upset with him, you
22
know, and they get into a screaming match and
23
everything else we used to be able to take them
24
down and, you know, they'd say, "Well, I don't
25
have any money for, you know, motel room" or "I
We used to be able to,
�78
1
don't have anyplace to stay," you know, and I used
2
to say, okay, "I'll take you down, I'll put you in
3
one of our holding cells and you can sleep it off
4
tonight and then go home tomorrow morning," and
5
I'd be sure and let them out the next morning.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right.
7
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
No charges, no nothing,
8
you know, just give them a cot and a blanket, you
9
know, and they can sleep it off and next morning,
10
you know, his wife wasn't mad at him now and --
11
you know.
12
(11:26:03)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Sounds truly like the kind of
14
community policing they say we need more of today
15
but I guess just because of the way the
16
regulations and the bureaucracy don't let you do
17
that anymore.
18
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
See, that's one of the
19
things.
20
know, you'll ruin a guy on a DWI and, you know, if
21
the guy was close to home or something like this
22
here you'd take him home and say, "Hey, don't do
23
it again, and if you do, you know, you're going to
24
get arrested," but now we get sued if you do that.
25
I mean, you know, drunk drivers, you
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
�79
1
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
And it's the same thing
2
like, you know, I've had false rapes, you know,
3
had guys being accused of a rape that they didn't
4
commit, I had false rapes reported to me, you
5
know, and they came after me one time because I'd
6
had like three of them in a row.
7
said, whoa, whoa, whoa, woman's transitional
8
group, and I said, "Just sit in here, I'm going to
9
talk to this victim and I'll show you why," and so
You know, I
10
she did, and of course when I interviewed her I
11
said, "Well, hey, what you told me."
12
husband, you know, I had to tell him something so
13
I told him I was raped."
14
these people excited, you know.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Oh.
"Yes, but my
Now you're getting
Right.
"Well, I didn't mean to
17
do that but he, he got very excited."
18
know, it's just one of those type of deals.
19
are perceived to be bad guys but most of the
20
police officers are just doing their job.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
22
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
So, you
We
Right.
And I started the ASAP
23
program, Alcohol Safety Action Project in the city
24
of Lawrence, and with Bruce Beale out of DCCCA,
25
and -- but, you know, a lot of the ASAP program,
�80
1
you know, was gathering statistics and reducing
2
our alcohol-related accidents and the first year
3
we reduced them 125 percent.
4
(11:28:52)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
I think I'm pretty much done
6
with my questions.
7
either of you, want to add that we haven't touched
8
on that you think are important memories to share
9
about that time frame or what helped to make
10
things better in Lawrence over time, besides
11
things like the swimming pool and the Fair Housing
12
Ordinance?
13
Any other things that you all,
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Well, you know, I'll
14
tell you something.
Lawrence is a good town.
15
They got friendly people.
16
made this my home and now I know a lot more people
17
than I did when I first came here, but my dad told
18
me, you know, that even back in the '40s, that he
19
always heard that Lawrence had a good Police
20
Department, good city and everything, and I've
21
worked, well, 25 and 18, almost 40 years for the
22
City of Lawrence and I don't think that there's
23
any town around, even Junction City, I would never
24
go back to Junction City, this is basically my
25
town.
You know, the more -- I
I think Ronnie feels the same way.
�81
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, and, you know,
3
it's been a good, it's been a good city to us and
4
we have enjoyed the work, enjoyed the people.
5
Lawrence has always been a very liberal town.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
7
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And, you know, even
8
back in the days, you know, when we had the
9
Underground Railroad up here, you know, we was
10
always real, history of being real liberal and
11
helping, you know, the minorities, and even the
12
Underground Railroad, you know, this town has been
13
known for that, and Sheriff Jones's raid in
14
Lawrence and Quantrill's Raid in Lawrence has
15
always been real, a controversy town.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
17
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And I think a lot of
18
the radicals, you know, come in sometime and
19
they're real jealous of the society that we have
20
here and I think that's what causes a lot of the
21
problems.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
23
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
24
in and cause turmoil.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And they'd love to come
�82
1
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
But, you know, one of
2
the fantastic things about Lawrence is we had such
3
a diversity of law enforcement, you know.
4
police officer we got to work all kinds of cases
5
and have been a real enjoyable place for me to
6
live and --
7
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
As a
The reason why he knows
8
so much about the Lawrence history, when a lady
9
was killed over here, just right down the street
10
from here, and her son was living, where, up in --
11
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Des Moines.
12
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Des Moines, Iowa, and
13
he wanted somebody to stay in there because she
14
had a bunch of antiques and everything in there,
15
so nobody would steal it, and so he was single at
16
the time so he slept in there and she had all
17
these books about Lawrence and --
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
20
Interesting.
-- so he read them all
while he was there.
21
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And, yes, his name was
22
Don Smith and he was a --
23
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
What was her name?
24
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Vanera Smith.
25
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes, Vanera.
�83
1
2
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
right over here in the 800 block of Kentucky.
3
4
MR. ARNOLD:
that, yes.
Right.
I think I've read about
That was like in the '70s maybe?
5
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
8
One that was killed,
Yes.
Yes.
And she was a real nice
lady, but her grandfather was Josiah Miller.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, I know that name.
10
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
11
there, that's Miller Estates.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
13
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
At 19th and Haskell out
Right.
And her
14
great-grandmother, or grandmother, I think, was
15
Mrs. Miller and when Quantrill came in Lawrence he
16
sent out scouts and the scouts come in, they
17
scouted Lawrence, and on their way back out they
18
stopped there at the Miller house and they asked
19
for food, and she never did turn away people.
20
She didn't know who they were, but she never
21
did turn away hungry people so she said, "Yes, you
22
can.
23
And so they started in the house and she said,
24
"No, no, no, I don't allow guns in my kitchen.
25
You have to leave the guns on the back porch."
I'll give you, fix you something to eat."
So
�84
1
they unloaded their guns on the back porch and
2
they came in and she fed them.
3
Well, when Quantrill came with his raiders
4
they stopped there and they said, "Since you
5
friended my people nobody in the house will be
6
hurt as long as you stay here."
7
across 19th Street there's a little house back in
8
there and that was the caretaker's, one of the
9
caretaker's houses and he jumps on a horse and
Well, right
10
starts to run to Lawrence to warn them and
11
Quantrill's Raiders shot the horse out from under
12
him.
13
wouldn't ride in there after him, you know,
14
because they couldn't see.
He ran into the cornfield, and the raiders
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
16
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And in that history of
17
Lawrence book it said, you know, brave men are
18
seldom brutal; brutal men are never brave.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
20
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And I thought that was
21
a good saying.
But he was, Josiah Miller was the
22
owner and editor of the Free State newspaper.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
25
Oh, that's right, yes.
And he was also
Miller's Produce in the 700 block of Mass and when
�85
1
Quantrill and Sheriff Jones's raid, both of the
2
raiders, they stopped there at the newspaper and
3
they took, you know, they beat on the printing
4
press a little bit and took all the type, took it
5
down to the river and threw it in, you know, but
6
Mrs. Smith, Don Smith's daughter had the original
7
newspaper, the first newspaper that came off the
8
printing press and she's going to donate it to the
9
Watkins Museum.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Good.
You need to come
11
down there and volunteer at the Watkins Museum.
12
You know a fair amount about local history, take
13
advantage of that.
14
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
He should.
15
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And she's got some
16
other things, and I went down and talked to Steve
17
and told him.
She's going to contact me --
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Oh, good.
19
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
-- when she brings that
20
stuff in, and she was going to donate it to the
21
Kansas Historical Society and I said, "Well, we've
22
got a history museum here and they would really
23
love to have it."
24
25
MR. ARNOLD:
yes.
Yes, they would, absolutely,
�86
1
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
And that was hanging in
2
the wall of the house over there, and also Josiah
3
Miller was a paymaster for the Union Army and the
4
militia and he had a book.
5
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
What do they call them?
6
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Diary.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
8
MR. RONALD DALQUEST:
Okay.
You know, of what all
9
he'd paid and everything, what the guy was, when
10
he was, left the Army what he had, and that was
11
interesting reading.
12
13
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
that you --
14
(11:37:48)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
16
Is there anything else
I think we've covered just about
everything.
17
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
18
all and everything more, huh?
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Think we've covered it
I mean, I think we could keep
20
asking you questions about some of the many, many
21
events that surrounded the violence in '69 and '70
22
but I think you've provided a pretty good flavor
23
of what that era was like.
24
25
MR. DONALD DALQUEST:
Yes.
You know, like I
say, I was down there when that Dowdell got shot
�87
1
and I was up there, caught a brick up there on
2
Oread, and had to check out to see if the dynamite
3
was really lit or not up there.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
I know all too
5
often in circumstances like that the police get
6
the blame but in reality you all are just in the
7
middle of it trying to do your jobs and keep
8
people safe, and I think a lot of people don't
9
give you enough recognition and show enough
10
appreciation for that, but I want to thank both of
11
you for the contributions that the two of you made
12
to Lawrence over your many years as police
13
officers here, and you are part of the reason I
14
think Lawrence today continues to be such a great
15
town, it's because of people like you who helped
16
to shape it and make it that way, so thanks to
17
both of you, and I appreciate your time coming in
18
and sitting down with me.
19
THE SPEAKER:
Well, thank you.
20
THE SPEAKER:
Thank you.
21
22
23
24
25
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dalquest, Ronald
Dalquest, Donald
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
2:01:54
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Ronald Dalquest and Donald Dalquest
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Protest movements -- Kansas -- Lawrence
Law enforcement -- Kansas -- Lawrence
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Ronald and Donald Dalquest, twin brothers who were both police officers with the Lawrence Police Department at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on November 9, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dalquest, Ronald
Dalquest, Donald
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
11/9/2016
Contributor
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Arnold, Tom
Rights
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This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
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<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/dahlquest-brothers-110916-hi?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
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PDF
Language
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eng
Identifier
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DahlquistInterview110916.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
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Lawrence (Kan.)
1965 - 1970
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/46e5a2f0d282b99e037febc0d8fd9224.pdf
345a91b7244fa5667a28fc06b3419743
PDF Text
Text
1
1
2
CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
3
4
LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
5
50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
6
7
8
9
10
11
Interview of Gerald Cooley
12
October 12, 2016
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14
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�2
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Today is October 12th, 2016.
I
2
am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing Jerry
3
Cooley at Lawrence Public Library for the City of
4
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th anniversary
5
oral history project.
6
passed in July, 1967, Mr. Cooley was serving as
7
the assistant city attorney for the City of
8
Lawrence.
9
At the time the ordinance
Mr. Cooley, please tell me a bit about your
10
background and what you were doing in Lawrence in
11
the mid to late 1960s.
12
MR. COOLEY:
I returned from the military in
13
1959, finished law school, joined with Milton
14
Allen, an attorney, in his practice of law.
15
Milton became the city attorney sometime in the
16
'50s.
17
During the times that you mention we were in
18
a period of conflict, may I say, from two
19
directions.
20
the unrest that accompanied that.
21
the Vietnam War demonstrators that came from all
22
over the world literally to be in Lawrence,
23
Kansas, at that time.
24
25
Number one, there was a race issue,
Number two was
I was kept busy running around town to see
where the fires were and what we needed to do, if
�3
1
I could assist in resolving some issue or halting
2
some problem that the city was engaged in.
3
prosecuted truckloads of people, I suppose would
4
be a fair way to put it.
5
I
The old police station was just down the
6
street to the south here where the fire station
7
and senior services center is today.
8
place on the second floor for the holding of
9
prisoners.
There was a
There were, I believe, two big cells
10
there.
Generally I was at the call of the city
11
manager, who at that time was Buford Watson.
12
Earlier in that same early period there was
13
another city manager.
14
middle of things and did a very good job, I might
15
say, in trying to soften the impact on the
16
community.
Buford got in right in the
17
As I say, I was up practically every night.
18
I roamed the streets in my car, I walked, I rode
19
with the police wherever they thought that I might
20
be of some benefit.
21
A lot of it wasn't fun.
Some of the tactics
22
I saw were used by the North Koreans, a strong
23
piano wire in the alleyways across from tree to
24
tree about neck level.
25
to get the police or others that they didn't
I suppose they were trying
�4
1
approve of to pursue the alleyway as an exit or an
2
entrance and cut their necks.
3
was discovered very early.
4
that.
5
Fortunately that
We had no interest in
We had a lot of violence in the high school.
6
The high school seemed to be a focal point for the
7
racial issues at that time, although there were
8
certainly bigger issues than just the high school
9
involved.
10
There was housing, employment, education.
11
had a very small African-American community in
12
Lawrence at that time.
13
quite small at that time, I'm guessing less than
14
20,000 people, may have been even under 15,000,
15
but anyway, it was a small percentage of the
16
African-American community who lived here.
17
We
Of course, Lawrence was
The job itself was all-encompassing.
It was
18
to give advice to the police, to the city manager,
19
to the City Commission.
20
who were actively involved in the demonstrations.
21
We were very fortunate we had a Highway
22
Patrol colonel who was chief of the Highway Patrol
23
at the time who came to town and actually got out
24
and walked the streets and mingled with those who
25
were in the demonstration mode at that time.
It was to deal with those
He
�5
1
softened the impact a great deal, at least during
2
the time that he was working the streets, so to
3
speak.
4
I could go on and on, I guess.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
6
MR. COOLEY:
But it all leads to the same
7
issue, what did we do ultimately, I guess.
8
(04:56)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, let me ask you, you said
10
you had come back after serving in the military in
11
1959.
12
you grow up in Lawrence or go to K.U. as an
13
undergrad?
Had you been in Lawrence before that?
Did
14
MR. COOLEY:
No, I grew up in Oklahoma City.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
16
MR. COOLEY:
Which gave me probably a
17
different perspective of what the, among the
18
racial issues than other people who had not lived
19
in the south.
20
it was sometimes worse conditions than existed in
21
the south.
22
Even though it was not the south,
I lived in Georgia.
I served in the Army at
23
Fort Benning on two different occasions and got a
24
real experience of my life there, but coming back
25
I had a feeling for what the racial issue was
�6
1
because I had witnessed the no black person can
2
sit beyond a certain seat in the bus, in the
3
street car, and the white people were not supposed
4
to go back to where the black people were seated.
5
That was something that bothered me and a couple
6
of my buddies.
7
old, I suppose, but we challenged that and stepped
8
to the back of one of the street cars and were
9
ostracized by the conductor immediately, but
10
11
We were eight, ten, eleven years
anyway, we did it.
I remember what bothered me a great deal was
12
that in downtown Oklahoma City there were a few
13
restaurants where they had, it was not drive in
14
but it was walk up type restaurants and you could,
15
people could go inside to eat after they were
16
served or sit outside, but the colored could not
17
go inside.
18
I wasn't an activist by any means but did wonder
19
why, why we had such a rule.
20
They had benches for them.
I left K.U.
I really,
I was commissioned in the
21
infantry in 1954 and went to Fort Benning on a
22
second, my second time.
23
unbelievable in those days.
24
there some yourself, but I thought the government
25
could have saved a great deal of money if they
The south was
You may have been
�7
1
hadn't had so many different water fountains for
2
whites, blacks, enlisted, officers, women, men.
3
Same thing for toilets.
4
had, we had, my class at Benning, my second tour
5
there, I don't remember that we had any diversity,
6
maybe 150 of us that were in a particular class.
7
They were all over.
That's about my background.
I
As I say, I
8
think I have a feel for different aspects of the
9
race issue, particularly having lived in these two
10
foreign, I will say foreign places.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
12
MR. COOLEY:
They certainly were foreign to
13
me.
I had not been out of the state of Oklahoma
14
until I came to Oklahoma, excuse me, to Wichita to
15
attend high school in 1945.
16
transferred and we moved into a different, an
17
entirely different community atmosphere.
18
(08:30)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
21
My dad was
Okay, great.
Interesting.
Those are useful perspectives.
From the time you came back to Lawrence in
22
1959, or at the time you came back how would you
23
describe the types of discrimination that you
24
found in Lawrence?
25
MR. COOLEY:
Well, the obvious were in the
�8
1
restaurants and theaters and that's something
2
that's often talked about, but we had four
3
theaters, as I recall, at that time, four public
4
theaters, and the balconies, particularly at the
5
Jayhawker I remember they, the African-Americans,
6
the minorities, were put in the balconies.
7
weren't allowed to sit downstairs.
8
existed in the other theaters.
9
the Jayhawker came to mind, witnessing that.
10
They
The same thing
For some reason
There were a lot of exchanges between the two
11
levels in the theater by the people.
12
for and some were against what was going on, so I
13
had to feel uncomfortable about that because it
14
later led to some significant impact between those
15
who were in favor of the racism and those who were
16
not.
17
(09:47)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Some were
So over the course from the time
19
you returned in 1959 to start law school through
20
the kind of very tumultuous, even violent times
21
you described at the beginning, which I assume
22
kind of set in in the late 1960s, how did you see
23
things evolve in terms of race relations during
24
that decade?
25
build over some of these practices?
Did just kind of tensions gradually
�9
1
MR. COOLEY:
Let me correct myself.
2
returned to Lawrence in 1957.
3
law school in 1959.
I
I graduated from
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
5
MR. COOLEY:
I made a misstatement there.
6
I'm not sure that anyone recognized a slow
7
process that was evolving.
Obviously the housing
8
issue was significant, but there weren't any
9
rental places to speak of.
I returned to go to
10
summer school in 1957 and my wife and I had a very
11
difficult time.
12
foot basement apartment that was infested, but the
13
price was right for $50 a month in those days.
We finally found a 400 square
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
15
MR. COOLEY:
But there was no significant
16
rental market here in town at that time.
17
could get a room in a boarding house or in one of
18
the old homes over in the west part of town.
19
Those facilities weren't available to me and I'm
20
sure they weren't available in any greater number
21
for the African-American.
22
You
There were ways that I remember that
23
landlords, landlords' agents, those who were
24
renting properties, and even selling properties,
25
attempted to control who they rented to.
One way
�10
1
would be that they'd make a telephone call in
2
response to an ad in the paper and make an
3
appointment with the representative of the owner
4
to view the property.
5
up within a half a block or so and see who it was.
6
If it happened to be somebody of color, then
7
they'd go on and would not show up to show the
8
property.
9
wouldn't be tolerated today.
Well, the owner would drive
Obviously that couldn't be tolerated,
10
Secondly, there was the problem that, in the
11
mixed marriage situations, and that has continued
12
on even until somewhat recent times, where a white
13
woman, a black man, would be married.
14
woman would respond to an ad for rental of a
15
property, sign an agreement, and then show up to
16
move in and the two of them, the black man and a
17
white woman, were present.
18
white man and a black woman, but basically it was
19
a white woman and a black man in those days.
The white
It could have been a
20
That threw a lot of the landlords, the
21
renters, the rental companies into reaction that
22
was really not very good, and, as I say, that's
23
even happened while I was still, toward the end of
24
my tenure as city attorney, we had cases involving
25
that particular aspect of mixed marriage.
�11
1
(13:20)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And what year was that
3
that you finished your tenure, just to put it in
4
perspective in time?
5
MR. COOLEY:
I graduated -- I graduated:
I
6
retired from the practice and as city attorney in
7
January of '12, 2012, yes.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
9
MR. COOLEY:
Roughly five years ago.
10
MR. ARNOLD:
So the issues certainly have
11
persisted in some form well past the time frame
12
we're talking about.
13
MR. COOLEY:
We had litigation going on --
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
15
MR. COOLEY:
-- involving that.
16
(13:48)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall the Jayhawk Plunge
18
swimming pool protests in 1960 and was that kind
19
of the first really visible protest against
20
discrimination and do you recall how the community
21
reacted to that?
22
MR. COOLEY:
I recall it very well.
Jayhawk
23
Plunge was a private pool and had a big fence
24
around it.
25
were permitted to be admitted, though I think some
People of color or no diverse groups
�12
1
did climb the fence in the late hours of the
2
evening or early morning hours and take a free
3
plunge, but it was a debatable issue.
4
The city sought to solve the problem by
5
building a pool.
6
two votes where the pool issue was rejected.
7
Ultimately there was a passage of an issue at
8
election time and the City Commission then
9
proceeded to find a way to finance the pool and in
10
11
There was at least one, maybe
fact build it.
There's, it's not a misconception but it's an
12
overlooked fact that there was a public pool
13
before the current outdoor facility was built at
14
the northeast corner of 23rd and Iowa Street, back
15
before the public pool was built.
16
private club which had been developed by a couple
17
of local developers.
18
client of mine that happened to be out of St.
19
Louis who owned motels and hotels and I talked
20
with these people in St. Louis and the others that
21
were involved.
22
Topeka, maybe an accountant out of Topeka.
23
There was a
They sold that interest to a
I think there was somebody out of
Anyway, the group agreed that the city could
24
lease the pool for a short, the remainder of
25
whatever season it was, it was sometime in the
�13
1
'60s, and that was open to everyone, so that that
2
gained some time, some relief from the antagonism
3
that surrounded this issue for the city to get the
4
pool built over from one period of time, one
5
closure to the next year when they opened, so that
6
greatly relieved a lot of the stress.
7
(16:29)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
Right.
I don't know whether
you're familiar with a book by Rusty Monhollon
10
called This is America:
11
Kansas, but he wrote a description of that
12
decision by the city to rent the pool and his
13
version of it is that the city, that there was
14
pressure from, I think it was high school,
15
African-American high school students over some
16
racial issues, the lack of access to a pool being
17
one, and that there were even threats of violence
18
and so the city acted kind of under pressure to
19
rent that.
20
that happened?
21
22
The '60s in Lawrence,
Do you recall any specifics of how
MR. COOLEY:
I don't recall that but it's not
surprising.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
24
MR. COOLEY:
I don't think that you get
25
anything changed that involved race --
�14
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
2
MR. COOLEY:
-- without some force coming
3
from the opposing side.
4
(17:19)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
Now that, the actual
6
passage of the bond issue, which I think was in
7
November, '67, after it had been defeated a couple
8
times, what do you think finally changed people's
9
minds to go ahead and pass that?
10
MR. COOLEY:
Well, I'm not sure.
Some were
11
probably doing it because they thought it would
12
decrease the volume of protests, of opposition.
13
great many I think decided that it was the right
14
thing to do, and between the time I returned from
15
the military until the mid '60s there was an
16
increase, substantial increase in the population
17
in this community and those came from outside who
18
established their relationships, whether it was
19
with the university or private employers, so I
20
think those people probably had some impact on the
21
outcome of the election.
A
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
23
MR. COOLEY:
But that's speculation, but I do
24
know that there were a great many people, the
25
leaders of the community, who opposed it
�15
1
originally and who finally said it's time to do
2
it.
3
(18:36)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
Continuing kind of along
5
that line, what would you say were the, both the
6
factors that were kind of impediments to change
7
and then what motivated some people, and you've
8
already kind of touched on this, to decide it was
9
time to get involved and take action and who were
10
those people who tended to get involved and join,
11
you know, fair housing groups and groups that
12
opposed discrimination?
13
MR. COOLEY:
14
who the people were.
15
people who were opposed.
16
them by name.
17
(19:15)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
I'm not sure I have a handle on
I can -- I know some of the
Right.
I'm not going to mention
No, absolutely, don't
19
expect you to mention names at all but just kind
20
of, kind of general social groups I guess would --
21
MR. COOLEY:
Well, --
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Local community.
23
MR. COOLEY:
-- social, business.
If you had
24
a business you engaged socially in those days.
It
25
was always somewhat the same mix of people who got
�16
1
together from their business and did things
2
socially.
3
The resistance came from a great many sides
4
of the community.
5
Some people just grew up in an atmosphere that
6
they didn't like the colored people, they didn't
7
like what they did or what they stood for.
8
didn't want to share, what we really had is an
9
ideal community at that time, with anyone who they
10
11
Different voices were sounded.
Others
didn't approve of.
The university faculty and students, they had
12
a great influence I think on what changes were
13
ultimately made in the pool issue, the adoption of
14
the ordinance, that type of thing.
15
The university grew.
When I came, when I was
16
in school here, I started in 1950, I don't think
17
there was maybe 7,500 students.
18
dramatically simply because a lot of returning
19
veterans, World War II was still returning
20
veterans to the campus, the Korean conflict, there
21
were a great many who returned to the campus who
22
had been in that conflict, so that the population
23
of the university grew.
24
25
It increased
It's not a secret that a lot of people think
the university has a more liberal attitude than
�17
1
some of those who are on the other side of the
2
fence, but whatever it was, I think that the
3
university, not only the personnel but the
4
students, had tremendous influence and impact on
5
what ultimately resulted in the ordinance on fair
6
housing, and many other things that occurred to
7
share what we have with other people.
8
(21:28)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
Yes, it's interesting you
10
say that because I just interviewed Fred Six a
11
week ago and he kind of had the same perspective.
12
He felt that if this wasn't a university town the
13
change would have come much more slowly and
14
possibly much more painfully than it did.
15
16
MR. COOLEY:
I think that's true, and Fred
and I started law school the same year, in 1953.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Really?
18
MR. COOLEY:
He just returned from Korea and
19
started in the summer, I started in the fall, so
20
--
21
(21:54)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
Were you involved
23
in any groups that were pressing for change, if
24
not community organizations but say through your
25
church, or was your church involved?
I know that
�18
1
the churches played, many churches played kind of
2
varying roles in pressing for change, or at least
3
for fairness in community policies.
4
5
6
7
8
9
MR. COOLEY:
My family members were and still
are members of the Congregational Church.
MR. ARNOLD:
Which was very active, I think,
in -MR. COOLEY:
It was very active.
There was
division within the ranks of the church as to what
10
the minister was doing at the time.
11
particularly a photograph that appeared in the
12
Journal-World showing a march down Massachusetts
13
Street toward the courthouse and the minister at
14
the time was noticeable in the photograph.
15
brought a lot of comment, pro and con, but the, I
16
don't want to call them antagonists but those who
17
were opposed to what he was doing certainly let
18
him know about it.
19
I recall
That
I later, at some later time I served as a
20
deacon of the church for a short period of time
21
and it was always an issue what should the
22
minister do and what shouldn't he do.
23
did what he thought was right and in those days
24
there were two great ministers that I'd had close
25
contact with and my attitude was that they could
Well, he
�19
1
get a job anyplace so I doubt if they were afraid
2
of being fired.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
4
MR. COOLEY:
They were very good at what they
5
did.
6
(23:35)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall Reverend Richard
8
Dulin, who was at Plymouth Congregational as, I
9
think he was the campus minister?
10
11
12
MR. COOLEY:
You know, his name comes up and
I don't recall him.
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, he ended up becoming the
13
chairman or the president of the Fair Housing
14
Coordinating Committee, which actually took the
15
proposal to the Human Relations Commission --
16
MR. COOLEY:
Right.
17
MR. ARNOLD:
-- to move forward with the
18
19
ordinance.
MR. COOLEY:
And I'm sure I knew him and had
20
some contact with him but I simply can't recall,
21
and I mix his name up with another Reverend
22
Dulin --
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
24
MR. COOLEY:
-- who's still around Lawrence.
25
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
�20
1
MR. COOLEY:
And at that, at the time all
2
these things were going on there were I recall --
3
maybe I better recall my notes here.
4
Reverend Sims.
Has his name come up?
5
MR. ARNOLD:
6
across his name.
7
MR. COOLEY:
8
fellow.
9
first met him.
There was a
I do not believe we have run
Reverend Sims was an interesting
He was not a youngster at the time I
I started the practice of law in
10
February of 1959.
11
office more than a week when Reverend Sims showed
12
up.
13
and he handed that to me and it was asking for a
14
contribution to his church, which I certainly felt
15
I should do, even though I didn't know where I'd
16
get the money at the time, but I did it, and he
17
was very active in the community and was well
18
respected.
19
I don't think I'd been in the
He had a little pocket notebook that he kept
At the same time then came along Reverend
20
Barbee, Reverend Dulin, and others who have had
21
great impact on the cohesion or lack of cohesion
22
in the divided issue --
23
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
24
MR. COOLEY:
-- that we deal with in racism,
25
so -- but they have been very active and I think
�21
1
have contributed greatly to what calm we have
2
today.
3
(25:39)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
In doing our research we
5
really found that a lot of folks from the
6
university were involved in some of these groups,
7
many of the churches were involved, but also you
8
find the names, and Fred Six also kind of pointed
9
this out, that there were certain fairly prominent
10
Lawrence businessmen or spouses of businessmen who
11
were involved and often he thought their support
12
was key to kind of bringing on more of the city
13
establishment behind it.
14
MR. COOLEY:
Sure, sure.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall any particular
16
individuals among businessmen who played
17
particularly important roles off the top of your
18
head?
19
20
MR. COOLEY:
I'm not sure, I think Glenn
Kappelman was here.
Has his name come up?
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Absolutely.
22
MR. COOLEY:
And Glenn was very active as a
23
realtor.
He operated out of an office on
24
Massachusetts Street for a lot of years and then
25
became a partner in Calvin, Eddy and Kappelman,
�22
1
which still exists.
He had a good perspective.
2
He had a lot of combat experience in World War II.
3
He was from the Lawrence community so he had an
4
understanding of what it was about when he
5
returned from the military, and he in general was
6
in the forefront of not only the race issues but
7
any issues that were confronting the city, would
8
try to assist in any way he could.
9
he agitated but generally he was received as one
Some thought
10
who was trying to resolve the impact on the
11
community that was happening.
12
(27:20)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Do you recall any
14
particular incidents or conditions that you think
15
in the mid '60s, before kind of the violence set
16
in, but any particular incidents or conditions
17
that really spurred some people to action or was
18
it just generally the climate and the
19
discrimination, conditions of discrimination in
20
general that really motivated people?
21
22
MR. COOLEY:
At some
point I -- it's sort of like a nightmare at times.
23
(27:52)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Well, it's difficult.
years ago --
Right.
And I know it was 50
�23
1
MR. COOLEY:
Even longer, but there were a
2
lot of days without sleep so I don't remember
3
some.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure, sure.
5
MR. COOLEY:
I think that the thing that
6
really got our attention or got the city's
7
attention was the activity at the high school.
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
9
MR. COOLEY:
And I'm sure that's been gone
10
over, but I recall being called out or being
11
instructed to go to the high school because there
12
was a demonstration on the north, the exterior but
13
on the north side of the building as it existed in
14
those days, and this is Lawrence High School out
15
on Louisiana.
16
When I arrived I saw a lot of parents of
17
students at the high school, many of whom I knew.
18
I stood there for awhile and the parents were
19
trying to get their children to break up the
20
activity that they were engaged in, which was very
21
vocal, very Trumpish, if I may, if that's a use,
22
proper use at the time.
23
24
25
MR. ARNOLD:
They were vulgar.
I think that's going to be a new
terminology in the American lexicon.
MR. COOLEY:
They were very disrespectful of
�24
1
their parents.
2
of the administration of the high school that was
3
trying to control the situation.
4
that.
5
but I was impressed that the parents were trying
6
to do the right thing, at least what I perceived
7
to be the right thing.
8
solution, in my view, but that was one of the key
9
things that occurred.
10
They certainly were disrespectful
I took sides on
As a parent I thought that that was wrong,
Combat is never a
We had all types of activity.
We had a fire
11
bomb thrown into Judge Gray, who was a district
12
court judge, into his living room.
13
bomb to hit the county attorney's house at the
14
time.
15
wire situation, which brought back my training,
16
prior, --
We had shootings.
We had a fire
I mentioned the barbed
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
18
MR. COOLEY:
-- when I was getting ready to
19
go to Korea, and the disrespect that was going on
20
in the community.
21
alarming to me, and to a lot of people.
It was something that was quite
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
23
MR. COOLEY:
I was under personal attack by
24
an underground newspaper, by people who made
25
threats.
My wife and children lived under police
�25
1
protection for a period of time.
2
period of time when we had two officers stationed
3
across the street in what was then the home of
4
Vice Chancellor Albrecht, who was the dean of
5
academic affairs for the university at the time,
6
but they remained there and guarded and took care
7
of my family and my home.
8
(31:07)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
There was even a
What time frame would
10
this have been?
Was this kind of in '69, '70, the
11
height of the violence, or --
12
MR. COOLEY:
Oh, probably '67, '68, or --
13
MR. ARNOLD:
So --
14
MR. COOLEY:
'68 really broke out.
15
MR. ARNOLD:
'68?
16
MR. COOLEY:
'68 was a period of time I
Yes
17
remember when Chancellor Wescoe cancelled the ROTC
18
review, which was the final program for the ROTC
19
program for the year, where students received
20
awards, designations, whatever it might be, and
21
commissioning ceremonies sometimes took place in
22
those times.
23
people who were not involved really in the issue
24
of race or the Vietnam War at the time but felt
25
that that was just wrong, and I think it stirred
That generated a lot of concern for
�26
1
up a lot of problems.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
3
MR. COOLEY:
Certainly in my mind at the time
4
I thought it was an error.
5
(32:01)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
In your position as the
7
assistant city attorney did you play any
8
particular roles in that time in measures to
9
address discrimination issues or fair housing
10
issues in particular or did you simply not have
11
the tools in terms of, you know, laws to tackle
12
those issues?
13
MR. COOLEY:
Well, we didn't have, certainly
14
the laws were on the book at the time that we had
15
adopted and which have been expanded upon even up
16
to this time.
17
business, if you will, to get involved in real
18
estate matters, that type of thing.
19
It generally was not considered our
Certainly we did get involved in the
20
restaurant issue.
There was a particular business
21
located out on 23rd Street just immediately west
22
of Louisiana and 23rd which was a well known
23
popular steak house, dance house, drinking house,
24
and the owner of that just wasn't going to have
25
anybody in, he wasn't going to permit people of
�27
1
2
color in his establishment.
We knew the owner quite well and Wilt
3
Chamberlain came to town.
Wilt had a great impact
4
on the race relations in this community.
5
was a simple, very simple statement made to the
6
owner of this establishment that, you know, we're
7
going to quit coming to your business, and
8
ultimately he backed down and people started
9
going.
There
I'm not sure there was any great influx of
10
African-Americans or others who went there, but at
11
least it opened the door.
12
opportunity if they wished to take it.
They had the
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
14
MR. COOLEY:
So I think that Wilt had a great
15
impact in this community; still does.
16
(34:05)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
18
As I recall, the State of Kansas passed a
Sure, yes, absolutely.
19
public accommodations act, I think in 1959 or
20
1960, which was supposed to open up public
21
businesses to integrated customers, but I recall
22
reading about a number of businesses, a roller
23
skating rink I think comes to mind, that was not
24
following the apparent direction of the law and
25
there was some concern at the time the law was
�28
1
simply too vague in terms of what all kinds of
2
businesses that it applied to, whether they were
3
public or private.
4
of those kind of issues?
5
MR. COOLEY:
Do you recall dealing with any
Oh, I have some recall.
During
6
those times, I think it's important to realize and
7
to understand that this country was in turmoil for
8
many years.
9
the wars were over forever.
We went through World War II, thought
Five years later
10
we're in Korea.
That lasted for three years.
And
11
it seems like we've been at war ever since, but
12
there was a real lack of interest, if you will, to
13
get involved in something else that seemed to be a
14
struggle or a fight, having gone through those two
15
wars.
16
to heck with it, let somebody else figure out the
17
problem.
Lot of people just set back and said, oh,
18
It ultimately got our attention, of course,
19
and I think more so because of the impact of the
20
Vietnam conflict and the Vietnam demonstrations.
21
At the same time we still had the racial issues.
22
I'm not sure but if the racial issues would have
23
gotten the attention that they did without the
24
involvement of the demonstrations against the
25
Vietnam War, because it was a big forum then.
�29
1
Anybody could play "I don't like what's going on"
2
and do something to attempt to change or alter the
3
direction that things were being taken, so yes, we
4
were scared, I think it was a scared community
5
during the time of Vietnam and the demonstrations.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
7
MR. COOLEY:
And it served -- as I indicated,
8
there was violence on public officials.
It
9
particularly concerned me that Judge Gray got the
10
bomb, truly an outstanding jurist, but it
11
happened.
12
(36:54)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Any other national
14
events that you recall that may have had a
15
particular impact on Lawrence and people's
16
perspectives, whether it be, you know, some of the
17
race riots in big cities around America or the
18
assassination of Martin Luther King?
19
recall that that had any particular impact on the
20
community that was worrisome?
21
MR. COOLEY:
Sure.
Do you
There were two major
22
events.
Kent University is still a front page
23
issue and the dean of students at Kent at the time
24
has been on the administrative staff of the
25
university here for many years and I visited with
�30
1
him, been friendly with him about what went on and
2
what he felt was happening at Kent, and then he
3
became dean of students here, expanded and gave it
4
a title of student life or something like that;
5
still the dean of students as I would recall the
6
position.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
8
MR. COOLEY:
That was a significant thing,
9
and the Vietnam War issue and Martin Luther King's
10
death, if they thought they were going to cure a
11
problem, whoever did this, and I have no reason to
12
know who was the actual perpetrator or who set the
13
thing in motion to kill Martin Luther King but if
14
they thought it was going to ease the pressure
15
from the colored community they were extremely
16
wrong.
17
it did was bring people together.
18
hard-hearted as people are they don't like to see
19
people murdered.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
21
MR. COOLEY:
At least that's my observation.
22
(38:44)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
They misjudged their opponent, because all
Sure.
Even as
Scott Wagner pointed out
24
to me that you've lived I think for many, many
25
years in the University Heights neighborhood going
�31
1
back all the way to this time period and he was
2
just wondering whether -- I assume that was an
3
all-white neighborhood at the time but probably
4
had faculty members living among you.
5
housing ever a, or segregation a point of
6
discussion among your neighbors, that you recall?
7
MR. COOLEY:
Was fair
No, and I'm not sure it was
8
University Heights.
I live two blocks west of the
9
fountain at the university, --
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
11
MR. COOLEY:
-- if that's University Heights.
12
MR. ARNOLD:
I was actually trying to figure
13
out, you know, there's Hillcrest Heights, I think
14
University Heights, there's several neighborhoods
15
back in there, I'm not sure I got the right name
16
--
17
MR. COOLEY:
Yes, that's all right.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
-- but in that area near the
19
university.
20
MR. COOLEY:
West Hills neighborhood --
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, West Hills.
22
MR. COOLEY:
-- just west of that.
23
trying to think.
24
opposed integration into the neighborhood, at
25
least no one I was aware of, as long as they mowed
No, I'm
I know that no one would have
�32
1
their yard and cleaned off the sidewalks and kept
2
the place looking decent.
3
(39:59)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, it's interesting you
5
mention that because one of the perspectives of
6
the fair housing issue is that the real estate
7
agents were steering people away from generally
8
all-white neighborhoods because they thought the
9
people in the neighborhoods would be strongly
10
opposed to having African-American neighbors and
11
they might then hurt the real estate agent's
12
business, but at the same time I've read things or
13
seen things that suggest that there was actually
14
much broader-based support for, or at least no
15
opposition to African-Americans moving into
16
all-white neighborhoods.
17
that perspective?
18
MR. COOLEY:
Would you agree with
Well, certainly in my
19
neighborhood I don't know of any objections that
20
existed.
21
there may have been people who expressed their
22
concern but I don't know that it got to my
23
attention as a legal issue.
24
cases I had to defend on that particular subject.
25
I'm sure in some other neighborhoods
(41:05)
I don't recall any
�33
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Let's shift over a little bit
2
now towards the more, the specifics, and again, I
3
know you weren't directly involved in the passage
4
of the Fair Housing Ordinance but let me, can I
5
ask you some questions along those lines, starting
6
with what was your view at the time, if you
7
recall, of the Human Relations Commission, its
8
purpose, and whether it was successful in moving
9
in the direction of ending, or addressing and
10
11
12
ending discriminatory practices?
MR. COOLEY:
addressed.
Well, I think they were
I don't think it's ever ended.
13
(41:42)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, exactly.
That's a valid
15
point.
16
respected group of people whose efforts were
17
credible among much of the Lawrence citizenry or
18
do you think they were, you know, some people's
19
referred to them as do-gooders who were looking
20
for problems that didn't necessarily exist?
21
Was the membership of the council a fairly
MR. COOLEY:
All of those terms have been
22
used.
They were good people.
They were good
23
citizens.
24
community, university community, just the
25
community as a whole.
They were either from the business
I would not fault any of
�34
1
them.
2
mission that was assigned to them as a member of
3
this particular commission.
4
They had the right attitude toward their
Same thing goes on today, it's not changed
5
any.
6
because they're told what to do to comply with the
7
law.
8
get the more rebuke I see to existing laws by some
9
people than existed in my earlier career.
10
There are people who don't -- who oppose it
It seems that the older we get, the older I
I am still one who thinks if it's the law,
11
that it is what it is.
12
laws.
13
Relations Commission has dealt with some
14
significant problems.
15
16
Those need to be changed, but the Human
It's continued to.
There was -- oh, Heavens sakes, help me out
who the director was for so many years.
17
(43:27)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
There may be unreasonable
Of the Human Relations
Commission?
20
MR. COOLEY:
The human, department, the city
21
organization, human relations organization.
22
Ray.
23
sorry.
Ray.
Anyway we'll get to that, Ray Samuel, I'm
24
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
25
MR. COOLEY:
And Ray put out a lot of fires.
�35
1
People had no idea what he was doing.
I mean,
2
staff did, his bosses did, but the general
3
community didn't realize that he solved a lot of
4
problems with the one-on-one conversations, did a
5
lot of those in the evening after office hours.
6
He had a successful career.
7
problems solved because a lot of them still exist,
8
and they'll continue to exist as long as you've
9
got people of opposing views.
He didn't get all the
10
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
11
MR. COOLEY:
But it served, it served a good
12
13
purpose.
I remember some of the prime objection was
14
from employers who had substantial number of
15
employees and there was a quota system, if you
16
will, a percentage of your workforce was to be to
17
those of other, of lesser economic means and also
18
of color and diversity, not just African-Americans
19
but Mexicans, all other than Caucasian, so they
20
heard a lot of jokes, you know.
21
came in and said you gotta have 10 people of
22
diversity working here," and he called back to the
23
shop and would say, "Lay off one of them, we got
24
too many," you know.
25
attitude that existed.
"Well, the guy
Well, that was sort of an
They were doing what they
�36
1
were told but they weren't doing anything more.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
3
MR. COOLEY:
I think that if you go into most
4
of the places of business today you just see a mix
5
of everyone working there.
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
7
MR. COOLEY:
But I'm sure there are still
8
9
10
those who oppose being told what to do.
(45:42)
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
Sure.
Do you recall
11
being involved at all in the actual process of
12
reviewing and then passing the Fair Housing
13
Ordinance?
14
attorney over it, reviewing the ordinance for its,
15
you know, legal wording?
16
Do you recall consulting with the city
MR. COOLEY:
You know, I don't recall that.
17
I was still a youngster in the practice at that
18
time.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
20
MR. COOLEY:
I had my hands full with taking
21
care of those who violated our city ordinances.
22
(46:13)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
25
Sure.
Were you at least aware
that it was -MR. COOLEY:
Yes, oh yes.
�37
1
MR. ARNOLD:
-- being brought to the
2
commission and what -- did you feel like it was,
3
that the ordinance was addressing a real problem
4
and was sort of fulfilling a need?
5
MR. COOLEY:
Sure, sure.
We would have, if
6
we didn't have such an ordinance we would be back
7
in the days that existed at that time, --
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
9
MR. COOLEY:
-- the ways and means that
10
existed at that time, which would not be
11
acceptable and I think would lead to more
12
violence, more outpouring of hatred, bitterness
13
between members of the community.
14
I think there was another important thing
15
that took place in the same time frame and that
16
was the creation of the Douglas County Legal Aid
17
Society.
18
not, but I know Fred, Fred Six and I and some
19
others had impact on that.
20
established, and it simply is, it's run by the law
21
school.
It was an elective course at the law
22
school.
It has represented or the members have
23
represented those of diverse backgrounds, those of
24
low income, low income areas, and they do a good
25
job, and it serves two functions.
I don't know if that's been mentioned or
We worked to get that
It serves the
�38
1
public and it serves -- the law students get some
2
training in hands-on use of what they're being
3
taught.
4
I know that we recognized one problem before
5
the thing really got going that we hadn't, the
6
students couldn't appear in court because they
7
weren't admitted to the bar so we got the Supreme
8
Court to adopt an order stating that, with
9
limitations what they could do as long as they had
10
supervision from an admitted attorney, so it has
11
handled all kinds of realty problems, rental
12
problems of every nature, and they still have
13
those problems.
14
And it's interesting to look back.
I think
15
Deanell Tacha was the first director of the Legal
16
Aid Society at the university.
17
Deanell is, I think?
18
MR. ARNOLD:
I do not.
19
MR. COOLEY:
Oh, okay.
You know who
Well, she became, she
20
was vice chancellor at the university.
She is now
21
the dean of the law school out in California.
22
was on the United States Court of Appeals for the
23
Tenth Circuit, was chief judge of that group, and
24
she's held a lot of positions and been involved in
25
many, many things of value in this community, so
She
�39
1
she kind of got her start back there as initial
2
director.
3
(49:18)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Interesting.
What do you think
5
ultimately influenced the City Commission to pass
6
the Fair Housing Ordinance?
7
MR. COOLEY:
I'm guessing.
I know of one
8
reason was that there was, we knew, or the people
9
who were involved in organizing this effort were
10
aware that the state was going to adopt something.
11
I think we wanted to get a jump on that and do our
12
own thing, run our own community, so that had a
13
lot of influence on the ultimate decision by the
14
City Commission to adopt it.
15
Secondly, I think there was an outpouring
16
from those who thought it was something that had
17
to be because you at least attempt to overcome
18
some of the significant issues raised by race, the
19
racial issues, the economic differential between
20
groups within the community, and we had, in those
21
days we had really outstanding people that worked
22
on or that were elected to the office of city
23
commissioner and most of them had businesses in
24
the community and were successful otherwise.
25
That's not to say we haven't had good commissions
�40
1
since then, we have, but they filled a need and
2
they, John Emick I think may have been the mayor
3
at that time.
4
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Actually it was Dick Raney was
the mayor.
6
MR. COOLEY:
Okay, yes.
7
MR. ARNOLD:
He signed the ordinance then.
8
MR. COOLEY:
That's right.
9
I saw Dick
yesterday in fact, yes, but -- and Dick was very
10
active with these issues, and he remains so today,
11
I think.
12
(51:06)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Since you mentioned some
14
of the individuals, do you recall, and again, I
15
realize you weren't directly involved with the
16
ordinance, but any particular individuals either
17
within city government or who may have advocated
18
on its behalf who you remember playing important
19
roles in that time frame and pushing for things
20
like the Fair Housing Ordinance?
21
leaders in the town that you remember?
22
MR. COOLEY:
Any civil rights
Well, Dick, Richard Raney
23
certainly was one.
I don't want to make an
24
attribution to someone who didn't say or do what I
25
think.
�41
1
2
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I know, 50 years has been a
long time to remember specifics.
MR. COOLEY:
But there was significant
4
support in the community, and I can't come up with
5
the names.
6
(51:57)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Yes, I was going to ask
8
you what, what kind of -- do you have a sense that
9
the ordinance wasn't, other than obviously the
10
realtors had concerns about it, but that it wasn't
11
especially controversial and that there was kind
12
of general community support for it once it was
13
passed?
14
MR. COOLEY:
I don't remember any great
15
controversy.
I'm sure -- I can't imagine that
16
anything that came before the City Commission
17
didn't have some --
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
19
MR. COOLEY:
-- controversial aspect to it,
20
but --
21
(52:26)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you think the ordinance, you
23
know, from your perspective as the, you know,
24
assistant city attorney, the prosecutor and
25
ultimately as the city attorney do you have a
�42
1
sense that it had a positive impact, if not right
2
away, over time?
3
MR. COOLEY:
Oh, there's no doubt about it.
4
Some of the practices that were engaged in before
5
the ordinance was adopted and even in the early
6
days after the adoption were practices that don't
7
generally exist today.
8
Most people in the real estate business,
9
whether they're investors or whether they've got a
10
few properties or they've got large projects, they
11
know what the rules are and they know that if
12
they're going to get along they better abide by
13
the rules.
14
whether they appreciate the rules or whether it's
15
-- the fact, the question is do they understand
16
and apply the rules as they're written and it
17
seems that there's been a fair acceptance across
18
the board to follow the law.
19
win if you've got people who are witnesses to some
20
discriminatory act and so you've got other things
21
to do besides be involved in trying to resist
22
something that exists and it's not going to go
23
away.
Now, sometimes it doesn't matter
It's pretty hard to
24
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
25
MR. COOLEY:
At least that's my view of it.
�43
1
(53:49)
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you recall any fair housing
3
cases coming before you or do you feel like
4
compliance was pretty widespread after the
5
ordinance was passed?
6
MR. COOLEY:
7
Oh, no, I think it -- it became
more widespread as time --
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
9
MR. COOLEY:
-- evolved.
Yes, I recall a
10
case in the past 10 years, I suppose, where we had
11
litigation, and again, this is one of those mixed
12
marriage situations, the wife of one color, white,
13
I assume, would be the appropriate person to come
14
forth and rent the property and then they start to
15
move in, when the black husband showed up and the
16
realtor, who I believe did or may still live in
17
the deep south, took exception and said he wasn't
18
going to let them in.
19
litigation and we finally, after really a good
20
many hours, good many days of legal combat, if you
21
will, we ultimately got the appropriate order and
22
there were sanctions that were imposed and I don't
23
know what happened after I left the practice but I
24
assume that there was some substantial compliance
25
with the law which ended the case, but it may, I'm
Well, that creates
�44
1
sure there are others that are going on.
2
MR. ARNOLD:
Right, right.
3
MR. COOLEY:
Lot of times I found that, even
4
though it may not have been my position to do so,
5
I'd get the parties together or get them on a
6
phone call and see if we couldn't work things out.
7
Fortunately e-mails were not excessively used in
8
those days.
9
e-mail today.
I wouldn't allow a client to use
10
(55:56)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
Sometimes wonder how we survived
without -- I mean, even --
13
MR. COOLEY:
Very good, very well.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
-- across the course of my
15
career as a, I was a career military officer but
16
started off with there was no such thing as e-mail
17
and then by the end of my career we couldn't do
18
business any other way so you sometimes wonder how
19
did we do business before we had it.
20
do quite well.
We seemed to
21
MR. COOLEY:
Yes.
22
MR. ARNOLD:
You've already talked throughout
23
your interview about various experiences you had
24
in the late '60s, early '70s with some of the
25
violence and unrest in Lawrence.
Any other
�45
1
stories or recollections that you'd like to share
2
about that time period?
3
MR. COOLEY:
Oh, I don't know.
I thought of
4
one that -- every matter that is serious sometimes
5
has a funny, a funny side to it.
6
I recall on a warm summer day sometime in the
7
'60s I had my uniform of the day, which was a blue
8
suit, white shirt, probably a red tie, and I was
9
walking around the area of Ninth and Vermont
10
Street.
11
suppose shopping or getting ready to and I noted
12
their presence and then I heard this vocal
13
outburst from a group of young guys and they were
14
vulgar statements and loud, and at the same time
15
my eye caught a police car and I waved to the
16
police to come over.
17
There were some women who were out I
The policeman got out and said, "What can I
18
do for you?"
And I told him what I had observed
19
and so he called the boys over and he said, "You
20
know," he said, "you guys are always doing
21
something stupid, but," he said, "you've really,
22
you've reached a peak today because you did it in
23
front of the prosecutor."
24
immediately, he said, "Prosecutor?"
25
thought he was the trash man."
This one kid responded
Said, "I
I immediately had
�46
1
to leave, I started laughing and I didn't want to
2
do that in their presence.
3
(58:10)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
One thing that as we've done
5
research for this project certainly in the mid
6
1960s when some studies were done, you know,
7
Lawrence was a fairly segregated community in
8
terms of the areas where African-Americans lived,
9
but to what extent do you think that that
10
segregation contributed to racial unrest?
11
MR. COOLEY:
Oh, I'm sure that it was
12
significant.
13
circumstances but I have lived in poor
14
circumstances where I was part of the dust bowl
15
generation, if you will, and I know that with no
16
money and place to live that's not very
17
accommodating it's not very pleasant, that you
18
sometimes have a bad attitude, so I grew up with
19
those circumstances.
20
I haven't lived in their
Again, I'm not trying to relate that I know
21
what these people have suffered or have lived
22
through, but I think that in the back, hidden in
23
the depth of some of these people they've
24
repressed a lot of these emotions and when the
25
'60s came along the demonstrations and all gave
�47
1
them an opportunity to open those repressed
2
feelings and start to express them and, you know,
3
the Jim Crow law was prominent.
4
issues of the south that were more prevalent than
5
they were here, even though we may have been more
6
repressive than they were in the south.
7
We had all the
I had a particular -- my second tour at Fort
8
Benning I was married, in fact I got married and
9
took off on orders to Fort Benning the same day,
10
but the wife was finishing up her degree by E --
11
by mail, not e-mail, and had a young lady from
12
Alabama who was brought in in a, just a smashed
13
group of people into an old truck and they let
14
them off, and anyway, she once in awhile came in
15
to clean up things, and I thought that was
16
horrible.
17
hour.
18
lieutenant's salary.
19
occasionally and also would try to give her things
20
that we weren't going to use anymore in the food
21
line and I got contacted by the driver of the
22
truck, said, "Don't do that."
23
you drive your truck.
24
what I want to do."
25
you haven't seen it you can't believe it.
I think the going rate was 35 cents an
That was cheap even for a second
I gave her a little extra
And I said, "Look,
If she works here I'll do
But that was a problem.
If
�48
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
2
MR. COOLEY:
And this was very, very common
3
occurrence that come from Phenix City, Alabama,
4
across the Chattahoochee River there into Columbus
5
and then to Fort Benning and bringing these
6
carloads of, what, I guess they called them
7
servants at the time.
8
(1:01:29)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Would you say, you know,
10
from your many years of perspective that you had
11
through your time as assistant city
12
attorney/prosecutor and then once you became the
13
city attorney for many years after the 1960s,
14
would you say that both the positive changes,
15
things like the Fair Housing Ordinance, the public
16
swimming pool, but also some of the obviously more
17
negative experiences, like the unrest of the late
18
'60s, early '70s, did all those things in
19
combination make Lawrence, as painful as some of
20
them were, a better community coming out the other
21
end or did you see positive changes that resulted
22
from that period?
23
MR. COOLEY:
Sure you do.
People who weren't
24
here at the time wouldn't recognize them but this
25
isn't the community that it was at that time.
We
�49
1
were, surprisingly to a lot of people, we were
2
kind of a sleepy college town.
3
with growth you have problems that you have to
4
address, it just, growth, it's just the nature of
5
the beast, I think, but overall I think that we
6
wouldn't be the community we are today if we
7
hadn't adopted such things as fair housing, if
8
there hadn't been other laws enacted either by
9
Congress or by the state or by the city addressing
10
problems of a general nature for all communities,
11
all people, we wouldn't be near the community we
12
are today.
13
Sure we got our problems.
We've grown and
I think right now
14
it's a nation or a worldwide problem that we're
15
experiencing, which is very remindful to me of
16
what took place back in the '60s and '70s, but it
17
will be resolved, hopefully it will be without
18
any more violence.
19
that won't occur, but without great violence and
20
without great loss of life, but it'll end.
21
will be a period of quietness and something else
22
will be a problem, so -- but overall Lawrence is a
23
great town.
24
my moped to the office.
25
one today with the traffic.
I know that is an expectation
There
It was a lot easier when I could ride
I wouldn't dare get on
�50
1
2
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Those college students still do,
though.
MR. COOLEY:
I've got two grandchildren that
4
drive a little different than what I would advise,
5
but stay out of the way of those people.
6
(1:04:00)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Well, Mr. Cooley, I have
8
come to the end of my questions.
9
offer you if you have any other thoughts about
10
11
I just wanted to
anything we didn't cover that you wanted to share.
MR. COOLEY:
Well, it's been, rambling, I
12
suppose my offering is simply one that's lived
13
longer than would be expected.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, thank you very much.
This
15
was a very useful interview and I think we got
16
some great perspectives from you and you played a
17
central role in a lot of these issues and so we
18
really appreciate the fact that you lent us your
19
time to share some of your memories, so thank you
20
very much.
21
22
23
24
25
MR. COOLEY:
I think it is important that we
keep our history evolving.
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
*****
Great.
Thank you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Cooley, Gerald
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Gerald Cooley
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.)
Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Protest movements -- Kansas -- Lawrence
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Gerald Cooley, who was the assistant city attorney for the City of Lawrence at the time the fair housing ordinance was passed in Lawrence in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 12, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cooley, Gerald
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/12/2016
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
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This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/gerald-cooley-audio-only-hi?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>Click <a href="https://youtu.be/NgWqD4fX1pQ">here</a> to view the video recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
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PDF
Language
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eng
Identifier
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CooleyInterview101216.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1950s - 1970
-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/39fd71803e27fac2c1761400418b6e9e.pdf
4e8dd7da5fc05c2583489105a13651ff
PDF Text
Text
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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
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50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
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Interview of Robert Casad
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October 24, 2016
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MR. ARNOLD:
Today is October 24th, 2016.
I
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am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing Dr.
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Robert Casad in his apartment at Presbyterian
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Manor in Lawrence, Kansas, for the City of
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Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary
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Oral History Project.
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At the time the ordinance passed in July,
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1967, Dr. Casad was a law professor on the faculty
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of the University of Kansas Law School in
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Lawrence.
Sir, to start off why don't you just tell me
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a little bit about your background, you don't have
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to go into too much detail and what you were doing
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in Lawrence in the mid to late 1960s.
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DR. CASAD:
Well, I came here from law
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practice in Minnesota to be on the faculty.
I had
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been at the University of Kansas as a student, got
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my A.B. and M.A. here, and then went to Michigan
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Law School and practiced law briefly in Minnesota,
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and the opportunity to become a professor opened
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up and I came down here.
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come back to a place that I liked.
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Kansan and have spent virtually all my life here.
It was an opportunity to
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What else would you --
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(14:35:43)
I am a native
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MR. ARNOLD:
So by the mid 1960s you were
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actually a professor teaching law at the law
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school at K.U.?
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Okay, great.
How would you
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describe the city at that time, in the '50s and
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'60s, and the racial environment and what forms of
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discrimination were apparent?
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DR. CASAD:
Well, of course it was much
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smaller, and as far as the racial environment,
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there was segregation in movie theaters.
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that had pretty much vanished by the late '60s.
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That is something we accomplished in student
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politics when we were students, we got them to at
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least allow black people to attend movie theaters
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that did not have balconies, and that was an
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accomplishment then.
Well,
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But there was a swimming pool here in
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Lawrence, and I believe it was a municipal
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swimming pool, but when agitation began for racial
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equality I believe they sold the swimming pool to
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private enterprise so that they wouldn't be forced
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to desegregate the swimming pool.
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Ottawa had a swimming pool and Baldwin had a
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public swimming pool, neither of which were
At the time
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segregated, but Lawrence was segregated.
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I don't think the schools were technically
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segregated, although virtually all of the black
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students went to either Pinckney or Woodlawn or
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New York School, grade schools.
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know much about the junior highs.
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think.
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that time, just trying to think.
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West and South and Central Junior Highs were
I don't really
I'm trying to
I think there was only one junior high at
Yes, I think
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organized somewhat later, as I recall, but I'm not
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positive about the dates.
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already existing by 1960.
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They may have been
The high school was not segregated, although
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seems to me that black students were discouraged
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from participating in the athletic events because
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I rarely saw them performing for Lawrence High.
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The high school I went to in Wichita was not
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segregated, although the grade schools in Wichita
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were segregated up until the eighth grade and
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after that -- no, up until the ninth grade.
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that they, black students, went to the public high
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schools, there were two then in Wichita, North and
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East, but Lawrence was surprisingly very racially
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segregated at that time.
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You would think a city founded by the
After
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abolitionists would have been much more willing to
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be in the forefront of desegregation, but Lawrence
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wasn't, and there was great resistance to
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ultimately building a public swimming pool for
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that principal reason.
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campaign to get a public swimming pool in
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Lawrence.
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(14:40:38)
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MR. ARNOLD:
We had to have a similar
Right.
The first protests
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regarding the swimming pool were in 1960 and a
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group that was involved with those protests, or at
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least was advising the African-American groups who
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were protesting, was the Lawrence League for the
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Promotion of Democracy.
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that organization?
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justice activist league.
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. CASAD:
Were you involved with
It was kind of a social
No, I wasn't.
Okay.
My involvement was just my
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personal beliefs and the fact that my wife was
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actively involved in the Lawrence United Church
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Women.
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. CASAD:
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Right.
And they were actively involved
in trying to promote racial desegregation in
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Lawrence.
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(14:41:35)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now, you had mentioned
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that most of the African-American students went
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to, in elementary school, Woodlawn, which is in
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North Lawrence, New York, which is in East
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Lawrence, and then Pinckney, which serves parts of
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the Pinckney neighborhood in Old West Lawrence, so
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it was pretty evident in terms of segregation that
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those were the areas --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes, uh-huh.
-- where the majority of
African-Americans lived.
DR. CASAD:
Residential, there was de facto
residential segregation.
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(14:42:02)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Now, to a significant
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degree that segregation was sustained because of
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real estate practices that real estate agents, if
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an African-American came to town looking for
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housing, even if they could afford to live
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anywhere they would tend to steer them towards the
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African-American neighborhoods.
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something people were aware of at that time?
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that kind of a --
Was that
Was
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DR. CASAD:
Oh, I think they were, and in
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fact in some parts of the city the, in fact in
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West Hills, where we ultimately bought a house in
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1968, there were racially restrictive clauses in
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the covenants of the deeds.
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them have covenants running with the land that
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prevented the sale of that land to persons, I
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think they even included Jews in there, that
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people had to be white Christians in order to live
The property, all of
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in that neighborhood, and those, you know, later
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developed areas, most of them did have racial
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covenants in the properties, so I don't know how
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many people who weren't actively involved were
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aware of it but I certainly was, and it was
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evident just from looking at the city where black
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people had to live.
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(14:44)
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MR. ARNOLD:
What would you say at that time
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were the most obvious or known impediments to
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bringing about change?
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racial attitudes of a certain established group of
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residents of the city or was it other factors, or
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was it just kind of the national environment, that
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Lawrence was just indicative of the nation?
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DR. CASAD:
Was it certain, just
Well, I think Lawrence was
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indicative of the nation.
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probably a little bit advanced over a lot of
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places, but I think it was the fear that real
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estate prices would plummet if they allowed
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African-Americans to live anywhere except in those
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areas where they were already contaminated, and I
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think that was probably one of the principal
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forces behind the continued practice of race
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segregation in everything.
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If anything it was
Businesses were afraid that they'd lose
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customers if they opened their stores, and
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restaurants especially, to black people, but I
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don't know, I can't remember exactly how much of
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that, of racial segregation continued in the
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restaurants by that time.
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but I'm not, I really am not certain when the
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racial segregation in the restaurants was ended,
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probably not until 1964, the Civil Rights Act.
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(14:46:05)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
I think it probably did
Well, some of it changed
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to a degree in the late '50s after -- I don't know
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whether you ever have heard of the story of Wilt
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Chamberlain and four other African-American
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athletes [actually three other athletes].
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DR. CASAD:
Oh yes.
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MR. ARNOLD:
-- going to the chancellor and
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saying, "If you don't get the restaurant owners
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downtown to open their businesses up to us we're
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gonna transfer out of K.U.," and --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
-- some change was brought about
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because of that, which shows you how much prestige
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Wilt brought to the program, and --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. CASAD:
Yes.
-- how that -I do remember that when a
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basketball team would go and have dinner together
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before games or something like that LaVannes
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Squires, who was the first black athlete allowed
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to participate on university varsity teams, was
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not allowed to eat with the other team members and
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Phog Allen himself required the owner of the
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Jayhawk Cafe, which was where they liked to eat,
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which is right down there on Ohio Street at 14th,
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to permit LaVannes Squires to eat with the team.
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Yes, I remember that.
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though, I think.
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(14:47:35)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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believe.
That was in the '50s,
Right, late '50s.
'59, I
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Now that's an example of how K.U. students
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certainly had some influence in bringing about
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change in the city, but what's also obvious when
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you read about the history of the groups that were
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advocating for change was the involvement of
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people like yourselves, K.U. faculty members.
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you find that to be the case, that many of your
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colleagues, in addition to yourself, and their
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spouses often were often interested in pursuing
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change and supporting these organizations that
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were advocating for social justice?
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DR. CASAD:
Did
I think that, yes, members of the
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faculty were generally sympathetic with
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desegregation, but I don't remember how active
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most of them were in that regard, but I'm sure
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they voted for the measures that would tend to
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desegregate the city whenever issues came up like
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that.
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I know the churches were actively involved in
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helping to desegregate the city, to promote racial
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equality.
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what you were talking about, C-O-R-E?
Committee on Racial Equality, is that
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
CORE was -Yes, yes.
That's --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. CASAD:
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I remember that as a student.
Right.
I don't remember them involved in
this.
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(14:49:24)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, many faculty members were
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involved in things like, or their spouses, in
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League of Women Voters, the Fair Housing
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Coordinating Committee, the United Church Women,
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but, as you say, in addition to the faculty
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members and spouses the churches also I think you
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often found being very heavily involved in some of
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these types of organizations.
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DR. CASAD:
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(14:49:50)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Uh-huh.
And then the other one that I
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had mentioned earlier, the League for the
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Promotion of Democracy, which was active from the
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late '40s until about '64, also pursued those
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types of issues and had quite a bit of faculty
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involvement.
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Would you say that, was there any, did you
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ever sense any resentment on the part of long-time
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residents of the city with faculty members wanting
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to stir things up and bring about change, --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Oh yes.
-- did you ever sense that?
And
how would you describe kind of -DR. CASAD:
I think there was always some
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tension between the town and gown that -- and I
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don't know, I can't put my finger on specific
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instances that would give me that feeling but I
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tended to get the idea that people in the city
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resented these outsiders coming in and trying to
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change their community, and I think the
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Journal-World wasn't especially sympathetic to the
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changes, although, as I recall, they were never,
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they never actively attempted to oppose it.
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As example of our -- I was, I was invited to
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write this article here, and I don't remember if
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it was by the Journal-World or whether the
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Journal-World invited the Committee on Fair
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Housing to submit some kind of an article and they
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designated me to do it, I can't remember the
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circumstances.
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(14:51:50)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes, there were actually
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seven articles that were published in a series in
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February of 1967.
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obviously, and there were six others that were
You authored one of them,
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either authored by specific individuals or
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authorship wasn't attributed but all kind of in
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favor, examining different aspects of the fair
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housing issue and arguing in favor.
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to ask you if you recall how that --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
I was going
Who were the other -One was a sociology professor, I
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don't have the names with me, but I think three of
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them were professors in addition to yourself, but
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it appeared they were all members of the Fair
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Housing Coordinating Committee, so it looked as if
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it was something that the committee had decided to
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put a series of articles together to kind of, as
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sort of a side track while the Human Relations
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Commission was crafting the ordinance to --
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DR. CASAD:
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(14:52:49)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Uh-huh.
And I'm wondering if you recall
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what the intended target audience of those
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articles was?
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Was it just to hopefully try and --
DR. CASAD:
Just the community at large, I
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guess, to make sure they understood the issues.
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It's not somebody trying to stir up their, trouble
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for them.
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if you happened to be black and were trying to
There was a lot of trouble here already
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eliminate or alleviate some of that.
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(14:53:21)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Do you recall also in
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the same time frame the Fair Housing Coordinating
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Committee also pursued a signature campaign and
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they got over a thousand people in Lawrence to
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sign a pledge that they supported fair housing?
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
I don't remember that.
Okay.
It was actually in, the
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city has actually mapped out the location because
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everyone, it was published in the Journal-World
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and everybody also provided their address and the
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city actually found very broad-based support when
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you looked at where all these people lived,
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including many, many of them in all-white
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neighborhoods, --
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Uh-huh.
-- so it was pretty obvious that
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a fair number of citizens of Lawrence had no
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qualms about having African-American families
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living in their neighborhoods.
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Do you think that, do you have the sense that
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there was fairly broad-based support in the
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community for fair housing?
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DR. CASAD:
I don't really have much sense
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for that.
I think it was something that we --
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(Phone ringing)
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Some robo call.
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We didn't feel a lot of support from anybody
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other than those that were actively involved in
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it, but I didn't see any organized opposition
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except to the extent that the realtors perhaps
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were sub rosa an organized group that opposed it.
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(14:55:04)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right, yes.
Do you recall how
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the Fair Housing Coordinating Committee came
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about?
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organization of a number of different [groups].
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Were you involved at all in their [activities] and
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who decided we need this coordinating committee to
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pursue fair housing?
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DR. CASAD:
I know it was kind of an umbrella
I have a feeling that I was but I
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don't remember that, that I was -- I don't know in
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what capacity.
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that committee.
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willing to do the work.
I'm not even sure that I was on
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(14:55:51)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I just was involved because I was
I think you and your wife
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attended a number of the, well, the Human
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Relations Commission meetings, along with many
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other members of the Fair Housing Coordinating
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Committee.
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Dulin, who was in charge of the committee?
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the youth pastor [of Plymouth Congregational
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Church].
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Do you remember Reverend Richard
DR. CASAD:
The name I remember.
He was
I don't
have a recollection of the person.
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(14:56:13).
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I was just curious.
Your
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wife I know was involved with United Church Women
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and the Lawrence League of Women Voters and they
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both were organizations that were concerned about
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fair housing.
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Uh-huh.
Was she there representing them
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at these meetings or was she really there on an
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individual basis?
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DR. CASAD:
No, I think she may have had some
official capacity.
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MR. ARNOLD:
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DR. CASAD:
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(14:56:43)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
I'm not positive but --
Right.
And what got both of you
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interested in getting involved in support of this
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issue?
Any particular concerns or --
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DR. CASAD:
Yes, just our personal beliefs, I
think.
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(14:57)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Was there a sense among
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the groups that were supporting this that the
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ordinance could make a real difference?
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DR. CASAD:
Well, we hoped it could.
There
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was also a feeling that how are you going to
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enforce this?
How are you going to enforce it?
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And the enforceability was a matter that people
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were concerned about because they didn't want to
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have to use strongarm methods if they didn't have
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to and so that was a factor people were worried
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about, but -- and if you're not going to enforce
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it what good is it?
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that kind of discussion.
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(14:57:51)
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MR. ARNOLD:
You know, that, there was
I think a year before the Fair
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Housing Coordinating Committee brought the
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proposal for a city ordinance up to the Lawrence
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Human Relations Commission the State of Kansas had
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considered a fair housing law but it had not
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passed.
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to the City Council the disappointment in the fact
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that the State had not taken up the issue?
Was part of the motivation in pushing it
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DR. CASAD:
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(14:58:16)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I don't recall that.
Okay.
Do you remember off the
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top of your head any particular other individuals
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who you remember working with that played kind of
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an important role in pushing the issue forward and
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drafting the ordinance?
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DR. CASAD:
Well, the only people I recall
specifically were Ann Moore and her husband, Tom
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Moore, and Fred Six, and those are the ones that I
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worked -- I worked with Fred basically, he's the
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only one I really recalled, because my role was in
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drafting the ordinance and I probably, I collected
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sample ordinances from other towns, university
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towns and other towns that had them to use as
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guidelines to draft the local ordinance here and I
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think I may have been one of, if not the
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principal, one of the principal writers who
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prepared it.
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think before the council because he was very well
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known in the community.
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well known and respected and he himself was an up
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and coming practicing lawyer so he was the one to
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promote it certainly, and he did.
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Fred was the one who promoted it I
(15:00:32)
His parents were very
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MR. ARNOLD:
But I know you all used for kind
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of your primary model the Iowa City, Iowa,
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ordinance.
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Do you recall why?
DR. CASAD:
I don't recall why except that we
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may have thought that was closest to the situation
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that we found ourselves in here.
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(15:00:51)
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MR. ARNOLD:
9
10
It sounds as if you
intentionally targeted university towns, thinking
there would be the closest similarity?
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DR. CASAD:
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MR. ARNOLD:
13
DR. CASAD:
I think we did.
All right.
But I think there were some other
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towns involved, but not just the university towns,
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but I don't remember exactly what all we did.
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(15:01:10.
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Did you all have a sense
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when you, when the coordinating committee made the
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proposal to the Human Relations Commission and
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then they took it up and the ordinance was drafted
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did you have a degree of confidence that this
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would be passed by the City Commission?
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think they'd be receptive to it?
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DR. CASAD:
Did you
I thought so by that time.
I
think there was enough feeling of receptivity
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somewhere along the line and I thought in the
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hands of Fred, that it would, he could convince
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them.
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(15:01:48)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Did you think that it would sell
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primarily on the legal arguments or do you think
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that moral arguments would sway them or some
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combination?
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DR. CASAD:
Well, I --
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MR. ARNOLD:
Or the kind of arguments you
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even made in your article, which is if we want to
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alleviate poverty and other social problems among
13
African-Americans housing is one area that's a key
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to that?
15
DR. CASAD:
16
started there.
17
something.
Well, let's go back to where you
I was about to respond to
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
DR. CASAD:
Okay, the legal or moral?
Yes.
I think we felt that if it
20
were emphasized that this is not a legitimate
21
basis for discriminating in residential housing,
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that the other issues would fall into place.
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moral would follow along.
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(15:03:04)
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MR. ARNOLD:
The
Did you have a sense that, in
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addition to feeling that the City Commission would
2
be receptive did you have a sense, again, that the
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community would be receptive to this, other than
4
obviously the real estate agents, who had a vested
5
interest?
6
DR. CASAD:
Well, I had, I guess I had some
7
doubts as to how enthusiastic the community would
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be but once we got it on the books they were, I
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thought it was, it worked fairly successfully.
10
(15:03:44)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Now why do you think fair
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housing was an issue that a number of groups kind
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of coalesced around and felt like that was a topic
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that should be pushed forward and an ordinance put
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in place to try --
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DR. CASAD:
Well, it was, nationally that was
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a, there was a great deal of emphasis on that.
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There had been some Supreme Court decisions that
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made it clear that that was not a legitimate basis
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for segregating people and that the, we felt that
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the ordinances would be upheld in the courts, but
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you had to have an ordinance.
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(15:04:38)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Right.
Were you involved at all
in efforts at the state level to push through a
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state, similar state law, which I don't think
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passed until 1969, but did you get involved in
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that?
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5
DR. CASAD:
I don't recall being involved in
that.
6
(15:04:49)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Do you remember at the
8
time when the ordinance went before the City
9
Commission and first the proponents made their
10
case and then the opponents argued against it,
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which, as you've already pointed out, was really
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only the real estate agents, do you remember what
13
the substance of their argument against it was?
14
15
DR. CASAD:
No, I don't have any specific
recollection.
16
MR. ARNOLD:
17
DR. CASAD:
Okay.
I can assume what their argument
18
was but I don't specifically remember what they
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said.
20
(15:05:24)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
In addition to the legal
22
argument in favor of that you've already talked
23
about I know a number of people also appeared
24
before the City Commission, African-Americans like
25
Jesse Milan, who had been a victim of housing
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discrimination.
2
DR. CASAD:
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
Uh-huh.
Do you think their presence was
important in reinforcing --
5
DR. CASAD:
6
MR. ARNOLD:
7
DR. CASAD:
Oh, I think so.
Okay.
Jesse was well, well received in
8
the community and people knew he was not anyone to
9
fear.
10
Yes, his participation I thought was very
important.
11
MR. ARNOLD:
12
DR. CASAD:
13
Good.
I don't remember who else but
there were others.
14
(15:06:17)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Two other things that may have
16
helped sway the commission.
The vice chancellor,
17
James Surface, wrote a letter to the City
18
Commission in support of the ordinance, arguing
19
that it fully conformed with university housing
20
policy, and then also the basketball coach, Ted
21
Owens, wrote a letter and said that he fully
22
supported it and kind of gave as an argument in
23
favor of it, you know, when he goes out to recruit
24
athletes, and particularly African-American
25
athletes, he often makes the case to their parents
�24
1
that Lawrence is a town that they would want their
2
son to live in and play sports in and so he felt
3
that this was a strong reflection on the, you
4
know, reputation of the town.
5
you think the City Commission would have been
6
swayed by kind of those university positions?
7
DR. CASAD:
To what extent do
Well, I think they were because
8
they were well stated and certainly people like
9
Ted Owens was, the community certainly wants to
10
have a good basketball team and at that time I
11
remember there was a, I remember there was about
12
that time a reaction against, by some of the most,
13
you know, ardent segregationists that they ought
14
to change the name of the Jayhawks to the Black
15
Hawks because we're getting too many negroes on
16
the basketball team, but of course they were the
17
only ones who were any good and so that helped to
18
break down the attitudes in the community of
19
people that just didn't like black people.
20
(15:08:20)
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And Fred Six told me
22
when I interviewed him that he thought that the
23
fact that Lawrence was a university town and the
24
university's influence, you know, attracting
25
diverse groups of professors from different areas
�25
1
and different backgrounds, as well as a diverse
2
student body, certainly helped change town
3
attitudes and made it, helped to make it possible
4
for things like the Fair Housing Ordinance to pass
5
do you think that's --
6
DR. CASAD:
7
(15:08:54)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
9
July of '67.
I think that's accurate.
The ordinance finally passed in
Later that year the bond issue to
10
build a municipal swimming pool finally passed
11
after a couple of unsuccessful efforts.
12
recall any advocacy for that that you or
13
colleagues of yours were involved in to push for
14
-- because I understand it was a pretty close vote
15
that time it finally passed.
16
DR. CASAD:
Do you
I know my wife was involved in it
17
and I know our own personal -- we took our
18
children to Baldwin mainly to go swimming.
19
were neighborhood swimming pools around in various
20
neighborhoods and some of them were not segregated
21
but the public pool, to the extent that the
22
Jayhawk Plunge was the public pool, everybody
23
assumed it was, it was segregated and we wouldn't
24
go there and support it, but I'm sure my wife was
25
somehow involved in that promoting the swimming
There
�26
1
pool ordinance, but I don't remember myself being
2
actively involved in it.
3
(15:10:29)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
So those two issues were
5
addressed, and obviously fair housing certainly
6
didn't bring about change overnight, but a couple
7
years later, in 1969, then continuing into 1970,
8
there was quite a bit of unrest in the town and on
9
campus, some of it related to the war in Vietnam
10
but also some of it related to racial injustices.
11
Did you have, or can you share any of your
12
perspectives on that violent two-year period and
13
what things were like in town and what you think
14
triggered that level of violence?
15
DR. CASAD:
The worst period was '69 and '70
16
and that year I was on leave at UCLA and things
17
were just as bad at UCLA.
18
Angela Davis was on the faculty and did a great
19
deal of agitation that made a lot of people angry,
20
so we had issues of that nature even at UCLA, but
21
I understand that year there was fire in the Union
22
building and one of the local cops shot a black
23
student, killed him, and so there was a lot of,
24
lot more ill feeling I guess here because it was
25
more concentrated than where we were in west L.A.
That was the year that
�27
1
When I came back I remember I was, I ran for
2
judge, for the district judge.
When Judge Frank
3
Gray retired there was no incumbent in the
4
position and I -- at that time we ran as party
5
nominees, that was before the judicial reform, and
6
I guess I was the last person to run as a Democrat
7
for a judgeship in this district and this was an
8
issue people were interested in, and I would have
9
to say that I believe that I carried the city of
10
Lawrence narrowly but in the whole district my
11
opponent, Jim Paddock, was, he was out, he got,
12
outvoted me for, by a large majority and so I was
13
not elected, but it was a -- I did make that
14
attempt to assert myself as a person in the
15
community instead of just a professor.
16
(15:13:58)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Were you involved, other
18
than your involvement in the fair housing
19
committee and in assisting to push that ordinance
20
through were you involved in any other community
21
groups that were pushing for various types of
22
change that you remember?
23
DR. CASAD:
I know I was on the traffic
24
commission but there were no particular issues of
25
social nature involved there, it was just
�28
1
2
controlling the traffic flow.
I don't recall being involved in other civic
3
issues until -- well, I guess -- I don't -- I just
4
don't remember any.
5
defeated for the judgeship I decided I'm going to
6
have to be a professor and settle down and do what
7
I can here and so from then on I was more
8
concerned about promoting my career, I guess, than
9
promoting other issues in the community.
10
(15:15:18)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
I became -- after I was
During the 1960s obviously
12
nationally and down to the local level a number of
13
laws were passed, from the Civil Rights Act to the
14
Fair Housing Ordinance in Lawrence, that made a
15
number of different forms of discrimination
16
illegal, but obviously in addition to putting
17
those laws in place changing attitudes among the
18
public in general is equally important.
19
see, oh, from the 1970s on in your many years
20
living here in Lawrence a fairly rapid change, a
21
slow change?
22
towards racial relations, towards discrimination,
23
evolved over the years?
24
25
Did you
How do you think that attitudes
DR. CASAD:
Well, I think the national,
legislation at the national level promoted it
�29
1
nationwide and that in turn was reflected in,
2
probably within 10 years there was quite a bit of
3
change here in the community, and by 1970 I'd say
4
it was much better in terms of the relations
5
between the blacks and whites.
6
Segregation was largely eliminated, official
7
segregation, and so on.
8
basically, though, it was a reflection of action
9
at the national level.
10
(15:17:12)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
I don't know, I think it
Did you feel like you could look
12
back later, reflect back on the passage of the
13
Fair Housing Ordinance here and see that it
14
brought about changes in Lawrence, at least over
15
time?
16
17
DR. CASAD:
Well, I don't know, I can't put
my finger on cause and effect --
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
DR. CASAD:
Right.
-- but from that time things
20
began to improve in terms of racial relations
21
fairly rapidly.
22
(15:17:50)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
In reflecting back on that
24
period and the role you played in bringing about
25
the Fair Housing Ordinance, bringing it to
�30
1
fruition, what would you say you were most proud
2
of in terms of the role you played?
3
DR. CASAD:
Well, I guess that's about the
4
only one that I did play much of an active role in
5
is the ordinance, that ordinance, and I do, I did,
6
I think a large part of the drafting was done by
7
me to get the materials together and decide on
8
what should go in it.
9
great length, but I guess that would be my major
I discussed it with Fred at
10
achievement would be the drafting of that
11
ordinance.
12
(15:18:49)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Kind of reflecting back
14
in that period of your life and your involvement
15
in that and kind of your observation, if you were
16
going to talk to a group of young people today
17
about how to bring about change what kind of
18
advice would you give them in terms of, you know,
19
looking at how change came about in different ways
20
in the 1960s, which was a very activist period,
21
what advice would you give them if they were
22
seeking to bring about change today?
23
DR. CASAD:
Well, I certainly was never as
24
sympathetic with violent demonstrations and I
25
really don't, I would not advise people to do
�31
1
that.
2
without it, but I don't know how effective this
3
would have been if there hadn't been some
4
agitation elsewhere in the country in the '60s
5
that did involve some active, well, some coercive
6
measures, like sit-ins and things like that.
7
I don't know how effective you can be
I always felt that if we can state the
8
arguments clearly enough, then we'll have to
9
depend on people's conscience, and I guess we
10
stated them clearly enough in this case without --
11
we didn't have to do any sit-ins or blocking
12
anything.
13
(15:20:58)
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Do you think -- and I think
15
you're absolutely right, I think this is a great
16
example of where a group of concerned citizens and
17
citizens groups came together, identified an issue
18
that they felt strongly about and made a very
19
strong case for it and succeeded.
20
like timing helped you out because of what was
21
going on both in the city and nationally, if you
22
had tried it three years earlier it might not have
23
gone through?
24
25
DR. CASAD:
Do you feel
Well, this did not happen -- it
stretched over several years, as I recall.
�32
1
MR. ARNOLD:
2
DR. CASAD:
Right, yes.
It wasn't overnight.
I don't
3
remember exactly when we started on that but I
4
have a feeling it was around '64 or '5.
5
6
7
8
MR. ARNOLD:
I think '64, you're right, was
when I think that committee formed.
DR. CASAD:
Yes.
So it took three or four
years actually before it ever came to fruition.
9
(15:22:04)
10
MR. ARNOLD:
11
end of my questions.
12
you'd like to share or anything I didn't ask that
13
you wanted to talk about?
14
DR. CASAD:
Well, sir, I have come to the
Are there any other thoughts
Oh, I think you've covered it
15
pretty well.
I really don't have that much
16
personal recollection, you know, it was just, I
17
just remember working on this ordinance and doing
18
a few things to promote it, but other than that I
19
didn't really do much.
20
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, I think you played a very
21
important role and the arguments you set forth in
22
the article you wrote that obviously helped sway
23
the public, because, interestingly, there was not
24
-- there were a couple of letters to the editor
25
after it passed but very little outward public
�33
1
opposition, other than the arguments that the real
2
estate agents made, and even then only two of them
3
showed up to state their opposition to it, so I
4
think you all made a very good case and wrote a
5
very good ordinance.
6
7
So if you don't have anything else I'm
finished.
I appreciate your time.
8
DR. CASAD:
9
MR. ARNOLD:
10
DR. CASAD:
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Okay.
Thank you so much.
Well, thank you.
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Casad, Robert
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
0:49:00
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Robert Casad
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Dr. Robert Casad, who was a law professor at the University of Kansas in the 1960s and who was involved in drafting the Fair Housing Ordinance that passed into law in Lawrence, Kansas in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 24, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Casad, Robert
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/24/2016
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/robert_casad_24oct2016?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CasadInterview102416.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Lawrence (Kan.)
1950s - 1967