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CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
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LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE
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50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
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Interview of Richard & Barbara Dulin
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February 20, 2017
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(15:03:58)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Today is February 20th, 2017.
I
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am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing
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Reverend Richard Dulin and his wife, Mrs. Barbara
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Dulin, via telephone for the City of Lawrence Fair
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Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History
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Project.
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At the time the ordinance passed in July,
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1967, Reverend Dulin was the chairman of the
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Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee.
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Reverend and Mrs. Dulin, before we begin the
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interview I just want to confirm that you are both
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aware that I am recording this telephone interview
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and have your permissions to do so.
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MRS. DULIN:
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(15:04:31)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Yes.
Okay, thank you.
I would like
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to start off by asking you both to share a little
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bit about your backgrounds and what brought you to
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Lawrence in the 1960s.
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REVEREND DULIN:
thoughts.
(indiscernible)
MR. ARNOLD:
through.
I'm trying to collect my
The audio is not really coming
Could the phone be held up a little bit
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closer to Reverend Dulin.
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MRS. DULIN:
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REVEREND DULIN:
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Okay.
I have had a lot of
experiences in race relations. (indiscernible)
I had an experience (indiscernible) with a
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demonstration when I was in seminary
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(indiscernible) Nashville, sit-in.
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MRS. DULIN:
This is Barbara.
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
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MRS. DULIN:
Helping Dick to get through all
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this.
Can you hear me?
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I can.
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MRS. DULIN:
Okay.
He was born in Kansas
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City and his family and his mother and his father
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were Kansans and then they moved to Texas and he
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went to the junior high and high school in Dallas,
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he went to TCU and got his B.A. there, and then he
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moved to Vanderbilt Divinity School and he
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graduated in 1960, which is a big day where all
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the sit-ins and (indiscernible) his classmates, so
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all that started with his seminary.
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Then he graduated and he went to Tempe,
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Arizona, and then Texas A & M and then Denton,
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Texas, at North Texas and Texas Women's
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University.
He was being a campus minister for
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all those jobs and he was, we were work, he was
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working in Denton and then things, all the
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churches were blowing up with the pastors in the
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churches through all that period and finally JFK,
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the President, was killed just 30 minutes away
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from us, and so finally the big problem was that
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the Christian churches that we were involved with
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were blowing up and so he decided he would go to
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United Church of Christ and they asked for a job
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for campus minister and K.U. asked him to come and
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so he was on the staff at Plymouth Congregational
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there and he was on a floating ministry that went
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into the campus and so that's why we came to
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Lawrence, and so that's where we are at this
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point.
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
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MRS. DULIN:
And now you can go a little
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farther if you want to Dick.
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(15:09:23)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
And then I'd just like to
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ask, so when you arrived in Lawrence how did you
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find the racial atmosphere in the city of Lawrence
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to be at that time?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I really didn't find much
conflict (indiscernible) civil rights.
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(inaudible)
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aware of.
There wasn't any conflict that I was
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(15:09:59)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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fairly peaceful city?
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African-Americans obvious at that time?
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So Lawrence at that time was a
REVEREND DULIN:
Was discrimination against
(indiscernible) I'm just
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saying that I was not aware of any conflict except
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in the housing area.
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(15:10:30)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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REVEREND DULIN:
What -When I was at TCU there was
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a white, completely white group and so K.U. saw a
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different complexion through the sports program
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and the growing black population.
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(15:11:08)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Why did you decide, Reverend
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Dulin, to get involved with fair housing issues at
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that time?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:11:21)
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MR. ARNOLD:
It kind of pursued me.
So you were asked to become the
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chairman of the Fair Housing Coordinating
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Committee, or at least initially a member of the
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committee?
�6
REVEREND DULIN:
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committee, appointed by the campus ministry group.
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(15:11:56)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes, I was a member of the
Can you tell me a little bit
about what the committee was trying to accomplish?
REVEREND DULIN:
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They were trying to provide
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fair housing to students enrolled in the college
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(indiscernible) graduate students and their
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families.
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(15:12:31)
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MR. ARNOLD:
So at that time they were
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subject to housing discrimination and you got
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involved to try and address that?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:12:42)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes.
And do you recall how you became
the chairman of the coordinating committee?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
No.
Do you remember any of the other
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people who were involved?
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in your mind who were also on the committee with
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you?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Does anyone stand out
I remember one person who
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was on the committee.
She was the director of the
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YMCA at the university and her support was
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critical, but I can't remember her name.
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Dulin is probably referring to Mrs. Anne Moore.
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She was a known member of the Fair Housing
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Coordinating Committee in 1966, and her husband
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Tom Moore was the Director of the University of
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Kansas YMCA].
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(15:13:39)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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that up.
Okay.
[Rev.
Well, I think we can look
Thank you.
Do you remember why the committee chose in
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early 1967 to go to the City Human Relations
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Commission to ask for a fair housing ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Yes.
It was an urgent
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appeal because black students and African students
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and students from Hawaii and all over the globe
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were seeking good housing close to campus.
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(15:14:53)
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MR. ARNOLD:
And when you appeared before the
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Human Relations Commission in January, 1967, did
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they seem very receptive to the proposal for fair
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housing?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:15:11)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Yes.
And from looking at historical
material it appears that the Fair Housing
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Coordinating Committee that you were the chairman
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of worked very closely with the Human Relations
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Commission to draft the ordinance.
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correct?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Is that
As far as I'm aware I think
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that was (indiscernible) the proposal by the Human
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Relations Committee.
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(15:15:58)
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MR. ARNOLD:
And were you and the members of
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your committee confident that the City Commission
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would be receptive to a fair housing ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I didn't have any
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preconceived notions but really just had immediate
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reactions in the community, individual students,
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who were impacted, and they figured fair housing
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was necessary to take care of the problem.
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(15:17:14)
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MR. ARNOLD:
So it sounds as if many people
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recognized that this was a problem that needed to
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be addressed?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:17:23)
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MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, one thing we found
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interesting was at the time the Human Relations
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Commission was drafting the ordinance the Fair
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Housing Committee that you were the chairman of
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went out and conducted a signature campaign and
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collected over a thousand signatures from people
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in support of fair housing.
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signature campaign?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:17:49)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Do you recall that
Yes.
Do you remember whose idea that
was to do that?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:18:05)
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MR. ARNOLD:
No, I don't think so.
Okay.
I can't recall.
Were you surprised at how many
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signatures you obtained?
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signatures was very significant considering the
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size of Lawrence at that time.
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you that that many people were supportive?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Because over a thousand
Did that surprise
Yes, very much.
It was
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obvious that there was a great need for such a
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committee.
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(15:18:32)
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MR. ARNOLD:
The one thing I wanted to ask
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you about was the support of the churches.
Much
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of the research we have done and other people I
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have interviewed indicated that a large number of
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Lawrence churches were very supportive of fair
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housing and trying to create this ordinance.
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you find that to be the case?
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clergymen very supportive and fellow churches very
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supportive?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Did
Were your fellow
Yes, but not, but not the
realtors.
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(15:19:07)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
The realtors appeared to
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be the only people who were in opposition.
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you say the support of the churches was a very
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important element in getting the ordinance passed
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by the City Commission?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:19:25)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Would
Yes.
Do you remember any fellow
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clergymen who were involved in this effort that
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you worked with?
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REVEREND DULIN:
No, except for one other
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campus minister, who became the chairman of the
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Fair Housing Ordinance [Committee] shortly after
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establishing it.
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(15:19:57)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember his name?
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REVEREND DULIN:
No, I can't remember his
name, but I remember he was Presbyterian.
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(15:20:06)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
Was there any controversy
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within your church about some people being
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socially active as you were or was all the
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membership of the church very supportive, all the
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congregation?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Well, I think that this kind
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of issue would run a hard road to solution, with
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the church support this was necessary, but there
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was conflict within the congregations.
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trouble for the realtors and some other people.
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(15:21:07)
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MR. ARNOLD:
They made
Do you remember working also
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with members of the black churches in favor of
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fair housing?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:21:24)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Would you say that cooperation
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was very good between your church and some of the
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black churches in working issues like this?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Yes, particularly my church,
which was United Church of Christ.
(15:21:43)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Can you think of any
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other churches specifically that were involved,
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either white or black churches?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Well, most of the churches
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had a positive reaction to a Fair Housing
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Ordinance.
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(15:22:16)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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Good.
And I wanted to ask you
about in May, 1967, when the City Commission was
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considering the Fair Housing Ordinance, you
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appeared before the commission and said you had
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the signatures of 23 clergymen from throughout
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Lawrence who were all in support.
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obtaining those signatures and that support from
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other clergymen?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:22:41)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember
Yes.
And do you think that was an
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important consideration for the City Commission in
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passing the ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I'm sure it had a great deal
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of importance to the committee to have the
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churches line up behind it.
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(15:23:08)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
And also the university,
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some, the university vice chancellor and
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basketball coach Ted Owens wrote letters in
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support of fair housing to the City Commission.
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Do you think that was also important in positively
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influencing them?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Oh, definitely.
That was
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very important, because the basketball program
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there (indiscernible) long-term relation to the
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college.
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(15:23:59)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I don't know if you remember a
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gentleman named Fred Six.
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and was a member of the Human Relations Commission
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and he did much of the drafting of the Fair
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Housing Ordinance, but do you recall if members of
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your committee worked with him in drafting the
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ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:24:22)
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MR. ARNOLD:
He was a local attorney
Yes.
Do you remember a law professor
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named Robert Casad?
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committee and also helped in doing research.
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:24:35)
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MR. ARNOLD:
He was a member of your
Yes, of course.
Okay.
Was he very helpful in
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the process of developing the ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:24:44)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Were there any other people who
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you can think of off the top of your head who
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played an important role?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:25:02)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I just remember a few.
Right.
I know it's been 50
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years, which is a long time.
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Glenn Kappelman, who was a local realtor but who
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was very much in favor of fair housing?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Do you remember
Do I remember?
Yes, he was
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one of the positive realtors who supported the
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housing ordinance right after, right off the bat,
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and that was a great help.
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(15:25:40)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
And I know many people at
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the university supported fair housing and many of
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the churches did, but would you say it was also
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important to have people like Glenn Kappelman,
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local businessmen, who were standing up in favor
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of fair housing?
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local people that this was something that needed
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to be done?
Did that help influence many
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:26:10)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I'm sure it did.
Now I think it was in April,
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1967, when the Fair Housing Ordinance was
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initially presented to the City Commission.
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the City Commission seem receptive to the idea of
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a fair housing ordinance?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:26:28)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Did
Yes.
Were you surprised that they
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were receptive and that they eventually passed the
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ordinance or did you expect that to happen?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I think that they had such a
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level of support from the community that it was
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almost inevitable that the City Council would have
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voted for it.
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(15:27:06).
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MR. ARNOLD:
There was one commissioner who
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voted against it.
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objections were, or do you remember what the real
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estate community's objections were?
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Do you remember what his
REVEREND DULIN:
They felt that that was an
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interference with what the community tried to do
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and they were opposed this interference from
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outside the committee.
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(15:27:55)
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MR. ARNOLD:
A couple of people I have
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interviewed have suggested that there were some
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real estate agents who actually welcomed the fair
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housing law.
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right thing to do but they were afraid to speak
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out in support of it because they thought it might
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hurt their business.
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that some of them actually were supportive but
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They thought fair housing was the
Do you think that was true,
just couldn't say so publicly?
REVEREND DULIN:
That's true.
Course, Glenn
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Kappelman was one of the, outspoken supporter of
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the commission.
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(15:28:46)
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MR. ARNOLD:
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REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I think -- go ahead.
What?
I said I think he played, many
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people have said he played a very important role
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because he was a member of the real estate
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community.
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committee to try to help promote fair housing?
Did he work closely with your
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(indiscernible)
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(15:29:20)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Reverend Dulin, can you tell me
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a little bit more about what you personally did as
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chairman of the fair housing committee, what types
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of duties you had and what some of your ideas were
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that you remember?
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REVEREND DULIN:
I was conscious of the
chamber to support Fair Housing Commission.
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(15:30:13)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I know there were many local
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community groups that were in support of fair
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housing and many of them had members on your
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committee, the League of Women Voters, Church
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Women United, the NAACP.
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as the chairman to bring all those groups together
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or was their support very strong and it made your
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job easier?
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REVEREND DULIN:
Was it difficult for you
Their reaction was very
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strong in favor of the commission and we got a lot
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of help from those people particularly League of
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Women Voters, NAACP and the Church Women United,
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and all, all the others that you mentioned.
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(15:31:21)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, good.
I just want to ask
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you about some people who were involved with those
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groups.
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African-American woman who was the president of
Do you remember Dorothy Harvey, an
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Church Women United?
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REVEREND DULIN:
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(15:31:36)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Yes.
And also a gentleman named Jesse
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Milan, who was an African-American teacher in the
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Lawrence schools?
7
NAACP.
He was the president of the
Was their support very important?
8
REVEREND DULIN:
9
(15:31:51)
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MR. ARNOLD:
11
Yes.
And do you remember working with
them on this issue?
12
REVEREND DULIN:
13
(15:32:01)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Tell me a little bit about how
15
you worked with the leaders of these other
16
organizations.
17
REVEREND DULIN:
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MR. ARNOLD:
What was that?
Can you tell me a little bit
19
about how you worked with those people, the
20
leaders of these other organizations?
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attend your meetings?
22
discussions with them?
23
coordinated with those groups?
24
25
REVEREND DULIN:
support these groups.
Did they
Did you have individual
Do you remember how you
Yes.
It was necessary to
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(15:33:03)
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MR. ARNOLD:
I wanted to ask you, in February
3
of 1967 as the Human Relations Commission was
4
starting to work on the Fair Housing Ordinance,
5
preparing it to send up to the City Commission,
6
your committee submitted a several page long
7
position paper on fair housing which had your
8
signature on it.
9
have members of your committee work together to
10
11
Did you draft that or did you
draft that, do you remember?
REVEREND DULIN:
I remember participating on
12
that, working out the language and the issues and
13
how it would be spread around the community.
14
(15:33:57)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Do you remember any other people
16
who worked with you on that paper?
17
Casad, the law professor, one of the ones who
18
assisted with that?
19
REVEREND DULIN:
20
(15:34:12)
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MR. ARNOLD:
Was Robert
Yes.
And then also at the City
22
Commission hearings in which fair housing was
23
discussed, in which the ordinance was discussed,
24
large numbers of people turned out to speak on
25
behalf of fair housing.
Did you arrange for all
�20
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those speakers to come or did many of them just
2
hear about it and came on their own?
3
REVEREND DULIN:
They were voluntary that
4
supported the fair housing commission [committee]
5
and I worked with a lot of those people.
6
(15:35:14)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
And when the city held its
8
hearing in which the, to hear the opposing views
9
the only people who showed up were I think one
10
real estate agent and a lawyer for the real estate
11
agents.
12
other opposition or did you think that really at
13
that point very few people were opposed?
14
Were you surprised that there was no
REVEREND DULIN:
I think that I believed that
15
the ordinance was fair, in sync with the
16
committee.
17
(15:36:08)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
So I take it, then, that you
19
were very pleased that there was not very much
20
opposition other than just from the narrow group
21
of real estate agents?
22
REVEREND DULIN:
23
(15:36:20)
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Yes.
And do you think that helped
influence the City Commission to pass it, because
�21
1
so many people spoke in favor and only a very
2
narrow group spoke in opposition?
3
REVEREND DULIN:
4
(15:36:34)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, how would you characterize
6
the position of some of, I'll describe it as maybe
7
the city establishment, people like the local
8
newspaper?
9
doubts?
Were they supportive or did they have
I know your committee published several
10
articles in the paper in favor of fair housing.
11
Was the newspaper happy to run those or do you
12
think they were a bit more reluctant?
13
REVEREND DULIN:
14
(15:37:03)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
They were happy.
Okay, that's good.
And I spoke
16
to, I don't know whether you remember Richard and
17
Phyllis Sapp.
18
a biology professor at K.U. but he said he
19
arranged for all those articles to be written as a
20
member of your committee.
21
REVEREND DULIN:
22
(15:37:30)
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MR. ARNOLD:
He was a law -- he was, I'm sorry,
Do you remember that?
Yes.
So it sounds like you had some
24
very active support within your committee to help
25
you push the ordinance forward.
�22
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REVEREND DULIN:
2
(15:37:49)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
And I also noted that, in
4
looking at the membership of your committee, many
5
of them were affiliated with the university but
6
there were also clergymen and some local
7
businessmen.
8
good cross section of the community on your fair
9
housing committee?
Were you happy that you had a fairly
10
REVEREND DULIN:
11
(15:38:11)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, of course.
And do you think that helped
13
obtain the broad support across the community for
14
passing the ordinance?
15
REVEREND DULIN:
16
(15:38:23)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
And did the City Commission seem
18
to recognize that fact and that helped influence
19
them?
20
REVEREND DULIN:
21
(15:38:37)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Now, once the ordinance passed
23
in July, 1967, obviously things didn't change
24
overnight, but did you have a positive feeling
25
that the ordinance would eventually bring about
�23
1
positive change?
2
REVEREND DULIN:
3
(15:38:54)
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
Did you see any of that while
5
you were still here in Lawrence?
6
have an easier time obtaining housing close to
7
campus?
8
9
REVEREND DULIN:
No.
Did students
I was too short of
people who supported the commission and it was in
10
the dog days of August that things began to get
11
going.
12
(15:39:49)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
14
So change did not come right
away, even after the ordinance was passed?
15
REVEREND DULIN:
16
(15:39:57)
17
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, were you still in Lawrence
18
when some of the violence erupted in the late
19
1960s on campus and in the city?
20
REVEREND DULIN:
21
(15:40:08)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
No, I wasn't.
Okay, when did you leave
23
Lawrence, do you recall?
24
REVEREND DULIN:
25
MRS. DULIN:
In --
(Inaudible)
�24
1
REVEREND DULIN:
2
(15:40:29)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
4
In, it was August, '67.
Oh, so you left almost
immediately after the ordinance passed?
5
REVEREND DULIN:
6
(15:40:34)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
That's right.
Now, did your role in that
8
process influence your decision to leave?
9
anyone, were there any people who had hard
Did
10
feelings about what you had done or was it just
11
career considerations that led you to depart?
12
13
REVEREND DULIN:
I think probably it had a
part of a mix.
14
(inaudible)
15
Yes.
16
MRS. MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT DULIN CLYATT:
17
W
e're going to pass this on to Mom.
18
(15:41:13)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
20
MRS. DULIN:
He's done pretty well, don't you
21
22
think?
MR. ARNOLD:
He's done wonderfully, and the
23
information we are getting is very useful.
This
24
is -- he's filling in some blanks that we weren't
25
able to get from other people so this is really
�25
1
2
wonderful.
MRS. DULIN:
Oh, that's good.
There was,
3
there were just basic problems that I was not
4
involved with but he realized there was something
5
going on with the campus ministers and it was, and
6
the churches, and I don't think it was connected
7
with fair housing and they all of a sudden decided
8
they were going to eliminate all of the four
9
campus ministers and Dad was the youngest one that
10
came into the thing and he tried to find a job as
11
a campus minister through the U.C.C. [United
12
Church of Christ] where he used to be but there
13
was nothing ready at that point and so there was a
14
church in Massachusetts that wanted him and so we
15
had to move quickly, because we didn't have any
16
choice.
17
(15:42:43)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
19
MRS. DULIN:
There were things happening at,
20
in the campus and there was a lot of things around
21
(indiscernible) the town that is always under the
22
surface and churches were not, you know, our
23
churches were white and you had the black churches
24
by themselves and south of us were the Indians, so
25
it was a family that, I mean, the Lawrence family
�26
1
thing is that they were taking care of each other
2
but they had never integrated and, really, and it
3
took this joy here in Wilmington at this point in
4
our lives to have neighbors and friends of all
5
races, it's just lovely here.
6
(15:43:39)
7
MR. ARNOLD:
Good.
8
MRS. DULIN:
But the big thing was that there
9
was a lot of tension going through all of this and
10
they wouldn't seek it out, it was just coming very
11
slowly.
12
(15:43:56)
13
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
Yes, I wondered if even
14
if it wasn't Reverend Dulin's direct role in
15
playing such a visible role in fair housing that
16
created pressure to leave, but I know some of the
17
people that I have interviewed suggested that
18
there was even maybe within the church community
19
some of the more conservative members were
20
becoming unhappy with the active role that some of
21
the ministers and even other church members were
22
taking in pursuing social action issues and I
23
wondered if maybe just that kind of general
24
opposition may have influenced it.
25
MRS. DULIN:
The whole country was like that,
�27
1
and the other part was where we were from in Texas
2
it was open, you know, it wasn't under the surface
3
and it was a real fight between churches and
4
schools and all kinds of things, but Lawrence was
5
not doing that that much and so it was a relief
6
for us when we came into it (indiscernible) so you
7
were able to get a fair housing bill.
8
(15:45:17)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
10
MRS. DULIN:
I think that people were doing
11
12
13
Now, --
pretty well considering all that was there.
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Tom, this is
Elaine.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
15
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
16
a little bit.
17
conflict in Lawrence.
18
MR. ARNOLD:
19
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
I want to jump in
There's always a town-gown kind of
Right, absolutely.
And I think that
20
at that particular point the churches were
21
becoming more and more nervous about the unrest on
22
campus.
23
MR. ARNOLD:
24
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
25
Right.
And for whatever
reason deciding to discontinue the campus
�28
1
appointments from the different churches that were
2
involved happened about then, so we were caught up
3
in that.
4
MR. ARNOLD:
Sure.
5
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
We were caught in
6
the churches being really nervous about the
7
conflict that was increasing on campus.
8
(15:46:05)
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
And of course that
10
conflict would continue to build until really in
11
1969 and 1970 it actually broke out into, you
12
know, violence in Lawrence, which was occurring
13
all over the country, but --
14
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
15
(indiscernible)
16
MRS. DULIN:
17
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Right.
(indiscernible)
Yes.
We stayed
18
very tied in to Lawrence and Dad was actually the
19
chaplain for the Midwestern Music and Art Camp for
20
years.
21
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
22
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
We kind of stayed
23
in contact with the Lawrence area, and of course I
24
went back to school there, my husband was born
25
there.
I mean, we have deep roots in the Lawrence
�29
1
area.
2
(15:46:51)
3
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, very good.
Yes, one thing
4
I wanted to ask, you know, Reverend Dulin had
5
mentioned that when you all came to Lawrence you
6
really didn't see too much open conflict, but I
7
assume the discrimination against
8
African-Americans in Lawrence was pretty apparent
9
from everything we have researched and read about.
10
You know, there was segregation in, not just in
11
housing but also issues with employment and to
12
some extent issues with access to things like
13
swimming pools.
14
obvious or was it a little bit more subtle in
15
Lawrence than say it had maybe been in Texas or
16
other parts of the south?
17
REVEREND DULIN:
Was that kind of segregation
Yes, I think that it was not
18
quite as rampant, but there were incidents of
19
violence that needed to be (indiscernible) and I
20
got involved in that.
21
(15:48:13)
22
MR. ARNOLD:
Did you get involved at all,
23
Reverend Dulin, in the swimming pool issue?
As
24
early as 1960 there had been protests over the
25
fact that African-Americans couldn't get into the
�30
1
local private swimming pool and then it wasn't
2
until late 1967 that the city finally passed a
3
bond to build a public swimming pool, an
4
integrated public swimming pool, but there were
5
several years of struggle over the swimming pool
6
issue.
Do you recall?
Were you involved in that?
7
REVEREND DULIN:
8
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
9
Yes.
Well, Dad, you may
recall it, but we moved to Lawrence in '64.
10
(15:48:56)
11
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, right.
Were there any
12
other incidents during the time that you were here
13
in Lawrence?
14
very involved in fair housing.
15
social issues that you were involved in or other
16
incidents that you remember that you got involved
17
in trying to address?
18
I know, Reverend Dulin, you were
REVEREND DULIN:
Yes.
Were there other
There were items on
19
the, in the community that would need your
20
attention, people who objected to the
21
appropriateness of the conflict.
22
(15:50:20)
23
MR. ARNOLD:
How would you characterize the
24
environment on campus as far as opportunities for
25
African-American students and their treatment at
�31
1
2
3
K.U.?
Were there many problems on the campus?
REVEREND DULIN:
To my knowledge there were
some problems but I didn't see an outbreak.
4
(15:51:05)
5
MR. ARNOLD:
So at least at that time they
6
weren't serious issues on the campus?
One thing
7
many people have told us in interviews is a lot of
8
the violence that eventually took place on the
9
campuses, that it's difficult to look at it in
10
isolation as being related to racial issues but a
11
lot of it also was anti-war, anti-Vietnam issues
12
as well.
13
REVEREND DULIN:
14
(15:51:32)
15
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes.
But at least up until the time
16
you left the campus it was fairly peaceful, would
17
you say?
18
REVEREND DULIN:
19
(15:51:45)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
21
were in Lawrence?
22
segregated?
Yes.
Where did you all live when you
And was your neighborhood
23
REVEREND DULIN:
24
(indiscernible)
25
REVEREND DULIN:
No.
No.
�32
1
2
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
lived?
3
REVEREND DULIN:
4
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
5
Remember where we
Yes, we lived on -Princeton
Boulevard.
6
REVEREND DULIN:
7
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
8
REVEREND DULIN:
9
then (indiscernible).
10
MRS. DULIN:
Princeton Boulevard?
Yes.
Princeton Boulevard, and
We moved from the, from, we
11
built a house on Princeton Boulevard, the first
12
one, way back when it was so far away from the
13
campus we were spending a lot of gas going back
14
and forth, so we moved to Sunset (indiscernible),
15
2019 Sunset Drive, where (indiscernible) go to
16
school and to the campus and so we were there
17
(indiscernible) the time.
18
(15:52:54)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay, and I assume that
20
neighborhood where you lived was an all-white
21
neighborhood.
22
your neighbors about how they felt about
23
segregated housing and whether they would be happy
24
having African-Americans move into the
25
neighborhood?
Did you ever have discussions with
�33
1
MRS. DULIN:
No, because where we were were
2
all usually professors and grad students and I had
3
a piano studio and most of my students were from
4
the law school, I had about 20 to 28 students
5
there, and we were very close to the elementary
6
school there and so people could walk from the
7
school to my house, (inaudible) but most of it
8
just was, most of the church, at the church and in
9
the studio were connected to the university and
10
completely white.
I don't think, there was no
11
African families in, at our church and so it was
12
really more of a white community but it was
13
connected with professors who were very, very busy
14
with their families and (indiscernible), but we
15
didn't really talk about this with our neighbors
16
that I would think about, but I just, I don't
17
remember.
18
(15:54:36)
19
MR. ARNOLD:
20
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Right.
My best friend at
21
Hillcrest -- was it Hillcrest Grade School?
22
Was a young woman who was adopted who was Native
23
American and I saw her suffer all kinds of
24
discrimination all the time.
25
(15:54:57)
Yes.
�34
1
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
2
MRS. DULIN:
(indiscernible) she would, when
3
we were there that didn't happen.
4
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
5
MRS. DULIN:
6
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
7
MRS. DULIN:
8
Yes, it did, mom.
It did?
Okay.
I was there.
She was one of my
students, too.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
10
MRS. DULIN:
I didn't know about this.
11
(15:55:11)
12
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, it's interesting, as we
13
researched some of the groups that were involved
14
in pushing for fair housing, the League of Women
15
Voters, obviously the Fair Housing Coordinating
16
Committee, but there was a very large university
17
community presence in all these organizations.
18
MRS. DULIN:
Right.
19
MR. ARNOLD:
So the university and its
20
community definitely played an important role in
21
pushing for social change, but one interesting
22
observation that Phyllis Sapp made when I
23
interviewed her and her husband was that
24
university people not only came from more diverse
25
backgrounds but also they lived in a somewhat more
�35
1
insulated community and therefore they could be in
2
favor of change without having to worry too much
3
about their job being put at risk or their friends
4
ostracizing them.
5
MRS. DULIN:
6
That's Phyllis.
7
(15:56:15)
8
MR. ARNOLD:
Did you find that to be true?
Yes, yes, that's pretty good.
Yes, whereas if you were a local
9
businessman who maybe favored fair housing if you
10
spoke out publicly you could lose customers, you
11
could have friends who would ostracize you, so
12
they were taking a bigger risk, people like Glenn
13
Kappelman, who was the realtor, and Dick Raney,
14
who was then the mayor and was very much in favor
15
of fair housing but he was a drug store owner.
16
REVEREND DULIN:
17
(15:56:49)
18
MR. ARNOLD:
I remember that.
Well, we are getting close to
19
the one-hour point and I know I have taken up a
20
lot of your time so I don't want to take this on
21
too much longer, and you have been very helpful in
22
sharing some information, but I just wanted to
23
give you, Reverend Dulin and Mrs. Dulin, the
24
opportunity, if there's anything we haven't talked
25
about that you think is important to share, is
�36
1
there anything else you can think of that you'd
2
like to share with me that I haven't asked about?
3
4
MRS. DULIN:
You might put Elaine's name on
your tape here.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I --
6
MRS. DULIN:
Her name was Elaine Dulin
7
Clyatt.
The Clyatts were big members of the
8
Methodist Church downtown and so all of that is
9
connected with all of our history, but we enjoyed
10
being in Lawrence, we just would not want, we
11
didn't want to leave, but it was really a
12
wonderful place to be and so that's why I think
13
that all of us came back so many times.
14
MR. ARNOLD:
Right.
15
MRS. DULIN:
We still have relatives, Elaine,
16
her husband's aunt and so we still have
17
connections there.
18
that were there, it's just lovely.
19
(15:58:20)
20
MR. ARNOLD:
I still enjoy all the people
Lawrence is still a wonderful
21
town.
I've lived here for about 11 years and of
22
course those of us who are relative newcomers look
23
at Lawrence as a very progressive university town,
24
and of course it has its free state history, but I
25
don't think many people, if you weren't around at
�37
1
that time, realize how segregated Lawrence was in
2
the 1940s, '50s, and '60s, and often are shocked
3
to hear about it.
4
MRS. DULIN:
5
(15:58:55)
6
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, I'm sure that's true.
I will be sending you all what
7
are called release forms, actually the city will
8
probably be sending them to you, Scott Wagner, who
9
I'm working with at the city, but to have you sign
10
those forms, which just gives the city permission
11
to use this interview for promoting fair housing,
12
and also we are going to archive the interviews at
13
the Spencer Research Library at K.U., so he'll
14
have a form for each of you to sign, and then we
15
are also going to transcribe the interview, and I
16
will make sure the transcriptionist knows everyone
17
who spoke, including you, Elaine, and I appreciate
18
your perspectives as well.
19
Is there anything else you can think of?
20
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
21
22
Is it possible for
us to get a copy of that transcription?
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, absolutely.
I can e-mail
23
it to you.
I'll be reviewing it after she sees
24
it, and I can also try to e-mail you an audio file
25
if it's not too large, or I can send you a copy of
�38
1
the audio file on a thumb drive or a disk or
2
something.
3
4
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Yes, that would be
great.
5
MR. ARNOLD:
Okay.
6
MRS. ELAINE DULIN CLYATT:
Dad has 13
7
grandchildren and I just would like to share it
8
with them.
9
MR. ARNOLD:
Yes, I think that would be
10
wonderful, so I will definitely make sure that you
11
get copies of both the transcript and the audio
12
file.
13
14
15
MRS. DULIN:
this.
God bless you, Tom, for doing
It is a beautiful thing for us.
MR. ARNOLD:
Well, thank you for
16
participating.
You know, Reverend Dulin's name
17
came up in almost every one of my interviews for
18
the important role he played and I think that the
19
historical record wouldn't be complete without
20
getting his perspective, so I thank all of you,
21
and him in particular, very much for
22
participating.
23
REVEREND DULIN:
24
MR. ARNOLD:
25
Thank you very much.
Okay.
Thank you, sir, and
thanks again for what you did for Lawrence in your
�39
1
short time here.
2
MRS. DULIN:
Thank you, Tom.
3
MR. ARNOLD:
All right, thank you.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
*****
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Description
An account of the resource
<p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p>
<p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p>
<p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
<p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arnold, Tom
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dulin, Richard
Dulin, Barbara
Clyatt, Elaine Dulin
Location
The location of the interview
This interview was recorded over the telephone.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview of Richard and Barbara Dulin
Subject
The topic of the resource
Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History
Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History
Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.)
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Richard and Barbara Dulin and their daughter Elaine Dulin Clyatt; Reverend Richard Dulin was the chairman of the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on February 20, 2017, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dulin, Richard
Dulin, Barbara
Clyatt, Elaine Dulin
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2/20/2017
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Arnold, Tom
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).
Relation
A related resource
<p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/rev-richard-mrs-dulin-20-feb-2017-22017-1010-am?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p>
<p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DulinInterview022017.pdf (transcript)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1964 - 1967
Lawrence (Kan.)