https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-lplks/original/05f97ed99fde51e3eaca3bc2e0141522.pdf 067d8c3962d55a36ef635e42eabaade0 PDF Text Text 1 1 2 CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS 3 4 LAWRENCE FAIR HOUSING ORDINANCE 5 50th ANNIVERSARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT 6 7 8 9 10 11 Interview of Honorable Fred N. Six 12 October 5, 2016 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 �2 1 MR. ARNOLD: Today is October 5th, 2016. I 2 am local historian Tom Arnold interviewing Fred 3 Six at the Lawrence Public Library for the City of 4 Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary 5 Oral History Project. 6 passed in July, 1967, Justice Six was serving as 7 the secretary of the Lawrence Human Relations 8 Commission. 9 At the time the ordinance Justice Six, let's start by having you tell 10 me a bit about your early background, including 11 what brought you to Lawrence and what you were 12 doing here in the mid 1960s. 13 JUSTICE SIX: What brought me to Lawrence was 14 my mother and my father. 15 moved here when I was five years old and my dad 16 had been principal of the Vinland High School. 17 Vinland had a high school then. 18 football coach, janitor, math teacher, vocational 19 ag. teacher, and a position opened up as the 20 county extension agent, county farm agent, and he 21 applied for the position and was hired and we 22 moved from Vinland to Lawrence into the 1700 block 23 on Mississippi Street just south of the campus and 24 made one more move next door. 25 I moved here, my family He was principal, My parents purchased a home at 1732 �3 1 Mississippi Street and I resided there until, all 2 through high school, college, and in 19 -- I 3 graduated from K.U. in 1951. 4 Then the Korean War was on. All of us who 5 were male and able-bodied were required to 6 register for the draft, and the Korean War had 7 been declared 1950, in the summer. 8 my graduation year, along with many, many other 9 young men all over America, I had orders to report So in April of 10 for active duty, and I was in a Marine Corps 11 program while in college and so that packet 12 arrived around Easter and it was keyed to 13 graduation and upon graduation you were 14 commissioned a second lieutenant in the United 15 States Marine Corps and given a set of orders to 16 report to Quantico, Virginia, at a certain date, 17 and of course I took that seriously and was in the 18 Marine Corps for a period of two years and then 19 returned to Lawrence from Korea. 20 I was a little late, it was in the summer, 21 1953, and law school here had started, so I 22 arrived back in Kansas City, flight was from Japan 23 to Wake Island to Hawaii, couple of days in Hawaii 24 in the Barbers Point Naval Air Station waiting to 25 be manifest back to San Francisco to Treasure �4 1 Island and then from Treasure Island we were 2 released and I flew to Kansas City and reported in 3 to the law school maybe a week or so after the 4 summer term had started and lived in my, my 5 parents' home while going to law school. 6 actually walked up from 1700 block on Mississippi 7 Street to old Green Hall. I 8 And on graduation from law school I took a 9 position with a firm in New York City and I was 10 there, shortly returned to Kansas, to Topeka, and 11 I was in, I was an assistant attorney general. 12 John Anderson, Jr., was the attorney general who 13 hired me and he became governor in 1960 and 14 served -- the governor then had two-year terms 15 rather than four, and he was elected for two 16 two-year terms. 17 In 1958 I returned to Lawrence as an 18 associate with the firm of Asher & Ellsworth and 19 then became a partner. 20 the firm, which was Robert F. Ellsworth, was 21 elected to the United States Congress. 22 was Fred Ellsworth, after whom Ellsworth Hall is 23 named at the university. 24 long-time beloved alumni secretary at the 25 university. In 1960 the Ellsworth of His father Fred Ellsworth was a �5 1 So Bob then went off to Washington with his 2 family and I was left as a single, single 3 practitioner, and I knew I didn't want to practice 4 law alone. 5 to handle the development of the law in the way I 6 thought it ought to be practiced as an individual. 7 It was -- I just wasn't smart enough And Richard A. Barber was a man I admired. 8 His office was down the hall from, right over 9 Starbucks now, it was the old Lawrence National 10 Bank building, and so I walked down the hall and 11 asked Dick Barber if he'd hire me. 12 hired a close friend of mine, John Emerson, and he 13 said yes and so Emerson and I were associates of 14 Barber and then shortly, maybe 1962 or so, the 15 firm Barber, Emerson & Six was formed. 16 is now known as Barber Emerson and has a lovely 17 office off South Park on Massachusetts Street. 18 He'd already The firm So we practiced law in the bank and then 19 moved into the new building we built and I 20 practiced law here in Lawrence until 1987, when I 21 was appointed by Governor Mike Hayden to the 22 Kansas Court of Appeals, and then a year later 23 Governor Hayden appointed me to the Kansas Supreme 24 Court and I served on that court until the 25 mandatory retirement. Under Kansas law at that �6 1 time a judge had to retire at age 70 or if you 2 were within the middle of your term, because the 3 Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals were merit 4 selection positions and so you went before a 5 committee, committee winnowed it out, submitted 6 three names to the governor; the governor made a 7 choice. 8 9 So I was, I reached age 70 in the middle of my six-year term and I was permitted to serve 10 until 2003 and then by statute I was mandatorily 11 retired, and that brings us up to 2003 and we're 12 now at 2016, so I have been here in Lawrence again 13 and lived in Lawrence all the time I worked in 14 Topeka, commuted, actually on, the bypass went in 15 about the time I was commuting and that worked out 16 well. 17 And that brings us up to the Lawrence 18 connection that you asked about, and except for 19 the Marine Corps time, time in Cherry Point, North 20 Carolina, Washington, D.C., and Korea and then 21 working in New York City, why, I've been here in 22 Lawrence. 23 24 25 MR. ARNOLD: So you truly are a lifelong Lawrencian? JUSTICE SIX: Yes. �7 1 [10:08] 2 MR. ARNOLD: Was it something that you 3 experienced in the Marine Corps that influenced 4 you to pursue a career in law or is that something 5 you knew you wanted to do even before you went 6 into the Marines? 7 JUSTICE SIX: 8 tangential influence. 9 assigned to a United Nations unit in the China The Marine Corps had just a When I was in Korea I was 10 Sea. You may recall that one day the Russian 11 representative at the U.N. on the Security Council 12 was in a tiff and left and that's when the 13 resolution was passed to intervene in the Korean 14 conflict, so it became a U.N. operation. 15 And there was a British operation in the 16 China Sea in which there was one American aircraft 17 carrier, one British carrier, and the destroyers 18 or frigates that formed the screen fore and aft, 19 port and starboard, were from New Zealand, Canada, 20 the United Kingdom, U.S., and I was in the 21 squadron. 22 There was a Marine squadron on the United 23 States carrier and in that squadron was a fellow 24 who'd gone to law school at Washington University 25 in St. Louis and he talked to me as we got �8 1 acquainted. He had been recalled for the Korean 2 War but I think what really influenced me, I 3 didn't have any lawyers in my family, no law 4 background, but the dean of the law school, Dean 5 Fred Moreau, had run into my mother down on 6 Massachusetts Street, and my mother was a 7 talkative woman, proud of her son, so you didn't 8 need to ask about me, she'd talk, and Dean Moreau 9 wrote me a personal letter, nobody had ever 10 written me a personal letter before, asking me to 11 come to law school. 12 And I kept that letter with me and I'd read 13 it over and over again. 14 things: 15 written communication, saying we'd like you to 16 come see us or thank you or -- and that outreach, 17 so when I returned, why, I went up and talked to 18 the dean and he enrolled me. 19 20 It taught me a number of One, the sweet nature of a personal [13:25] MR. ARNOLD: Great. Let's move on to your 21 experience as a member of the Human Relations 22 Commission and what Lawrence was like in that time 23 frame. 24 of the Human Relations Commission in, I think it 25 was in 1964? To start with, how did you become a member �9 1 JUSTICE SIX: The mayor of Lawrence then was 2 Jim Owens and he called me one day at the office 3 and asked me if I would fill a position that was 4 vacant and he told me a little bit about the 5 commission, told me who was on it then, and I knew 6 the names. 7 Lawrence in the 1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s knew of 8 her. 9 community. "Petey" Cerf, anybody who lived in She had a remarkable influence on the And the chairman was Dr. William Bins, 10 who happened to be a neighbor of where I lived, he 11 was affiliated with K.U., and others then on the 12 commission that I knew, so I said yes and joined 13 the commission. 14 When the then-secretary, Mrs. Eugene Wallace, 15 became chairman of the commission, then I was by 16 the commission members asked to be the secretary, 17 so I was the secretary through '65, '66, '67, on 18 into probably '68. 19 I went off the commission but it maybe was '68, 20 '69. 21 22 I don't remember exactly when [15:31] MR. ARNOLD: Okay. Before getting into any 23 of the specifics of your work on the Human 24 Relations Commission I'd like to have you describe 25 to me as best you can recall what the city was �10 1 like at the time, particularly in terms of the 2 racial climate and obvious elements of segregation 3 or discrimination. 4 recognized at the time and helped kind of motivate 5 you to want to become a member of the commission 6 to try and address those issues? 7 JUSTICE SIX: Was that something that you Yes. The city had gone through 8 a historical period in 19-, oh, let me think the 9 time of the troubles. There was racial unrest 10 throughout the country. I can't specifically pin 11 the dates on Watts in Los Angeles but Lawrence had 12 no, in 1964, when Jim Owens called me, Lawrence 13 had no public swimming pool. 14 pool called the Jayhawk Plunge that was out off 15 Sixth Street and I knew it well because when I was 16 a small boy, being white, I was entitled to swim 17 there and my mother would prepare a peanut butter 18 and jelly sandwich and give me a nickel for a 19 bottle of Neon Orange pop and I'd get on the bus, 20 public bus, at the corner of Mississippi and 17th, 21 ride down to where the First National Bank was, 22 which is now Merchants restaurant, ask for a 23 transfer, transfer to a bus that would let me off 24 at Michigan and Sixth Street, and walk up to the 25 swimming pool; reverse it on the way home. It had a private �11 1 So a group of faculty members at the 2 university had sensed the inequality, the 3 discomfort of this situation, and there was unrest 4 at the university as well. 5 surfacing, the lack of opportunity for employment, 6 and of course housing was merely one of many 7 discriminatory practices. 8 9 Employment was More prominent at least to, to me as a white person, was the public accommodations for eating 10 and restaurants. The Civil Rights Act was adopted 11 in 1964 and signed by President Lyndon Johnson but 12 the Lawrence theaters were segregated. 13 Granada Theater, which is still there, a venue for 14 rock bands and others, had phosphorescent rims on 15 the last couple of rows that would glow in the 16 dark and that's where African-Americans were to 17 sit. The 18 At the Patee Theater, which is no longer 19 existent but is the arcade on Massachusetts Street 20 on the east side in the block between Eighth 21 Street and Seventh Street, you had to sit in the 22 balcony if you were African-American, and the same 23 was true in the Jayhawker Theater, which is now 24 Liberty Hall. 25 And so as an adult with a wife and two small �12 1 children in 1964 I'd come back to the community 2 and my eyes were opened, not as broadly as they 3 should have been, but I began to talk to myself 4 and say, where was I when I was a teenager? 5 went to Lawrence High School. 6 play basketball; they had their own basketball 7 league. 8 could run track. 9 Blacks couldn't They, they couldn't play football. Where was I? I They I was president of the Student 10 Council, Lawrence High School. 11 didn't protest, I didn't hold -- I mean, I was 12 oblivious to all of this, and I, I remember my 13 mother, who sort of started the theater in 14 Lawrence, the children's theater, and she had 15 annual plays which were performed in the high 16 school auditorium and she began to outreach for 17 African-American children to bring them into the 18 plays, so in 1964 when Jim Owens made the call I 19 gladly, I thought, this is something that I can 20 do. 21 What did I do? I During the Monday night questioning period 22 the city attorney, Toni Wheeler, asked a question 23 of me if I'd felt any pushback in working on the 24 ordinance and I said no, I hadn't [this refers to 25 the Diverse Dialogues: Fair Housing at 50: Then �13 1 and Now program held at Lawrence Public Library on 2 October 3, 2016]." 3 who didn't retain me as an attorney because they 4 were of another persuasion, I don't know about 5 that, but I do know apropos to that question that 6 I felt at the time, my family were rooted in the 7 community, and I know this is the way that Ship 8 Winter felt, who was on the Human Relations 9 Commission, and Glenn Kappelman felt, because both 10 11 12 Maybe there were some people of them had grown up in Lawrence. [22:13] MR. ARNOLD: Right. I was going to get to 13 that question later but since you brought it up 14 let me elaborate a little bit on the pushback 15 issue. 16 concerned at all when you all took up the issue of 17 developing a fair housing ordinance? 18 think you might get pushback from elements of the 19 community other than obviously the real estate 20 industry? 21 Were the members of the commission JUSTICE SIX: Did you We were aware that it was a hot 22 button issue but we had I think a sense that the 23 city through the mayor, Dick Raney, and the, some 24 of the other commissioners and the city staff were 25 hoping that we would be the point people and that �14 1 it would move forward, and I didn't have anything 2 but support from my two law partners then. 3 didn't, I didn't even think about asking them, I 4 just said yes and told them that I was going to be 5 on this and that was fine. 6 They But the reputation of the commission was, was 7 known to me when I looked at who was on it and 8 then there was some turnover, and the members of 9 the commission that actually were involved with 10 the ordinance were Chairman Mrs. Wallace, 11 Mrs. Skipper Williams, Jan Williams, Dorothy 12 Keltz, Mrs. Hal Keltz, Reverend Norman Steffen of 13 the University Lutheran Church, which had, was 14 new, it was out on Bob Billings Parkway and Iowa, 15 and Glenn Kappelman. 16 mayor and he came to the commission, and he had 17 the Owens Flower Shop down on Ninth Street and was 18 prominent and I think moving from the City 19 Commission down to the Human Relations Commission 20 added some gravitas to the makeup of the Human 21 Relations Commission. 22 African-American, who was well thought of, was 23 also on the commission, and the group as a group, 24 commission members worked well together. 25 Jim Owens had just been the John Spearman, an Mrs. Skipper Williams and her husband, �15 1 Skipper Williams, who founded, along with his 2 brother, Odd Williams, the Williams Fund at K.U., 3 which has taken on significant, a significant role 4 in the K.U. athletic programs, would, I recall a 5 couple of occasions where they would have social 6 functions in their home and invite 7 African-Americans, including Homer Floyd, who was 8 the state civil rights director, and Homer Floyd 9 was known in this community because he'd been 10 recruited from the east as a football star and so 11 the name Homer Floyd was -- and he'd gone on and 12 received I think a master's degree and had come 13 back to Kansas. 14 and he didn't -- I think he was then offered a 15 position maybe in Pennsylvania as the director of 16 their civil rights program. 17 He was just a charming individual MR. ARNOLD: Yes, and he's still in 18 Pennsylvania and in fact I'm going to be 19 interviewing him around Thanksgiving when I'm back 20 on the east coast. 21 JUSTICE SIX: 22 MR. ARNOLD: I'm looking forward to that. Yes. He I think played a very 23 important role not only in Lawrence but for the 24 state of Kansas. 25 JUSTICE SIX: Yes, and regrettably his �16 1 efforts, the legislature didn't go along with the 2 State. 3 State would adopt a state open housing law. 4 had been a committee, legislative committee 5 studying it and the committee recommended adoption 6 and when that was turned down we wanted, our 7 commission wanted to move forward with deliberate 8 speed because there would be no state law. 9 10 We were hopeful that in March of 1967 the There [17:25] MR. ARNOLD: Right. So clearly you feel that 11 having as members of the Human Relations 12 Commission kind of a diverse group of fairly 13 prominent, well-respected people gave them a 14 degree of credibility that they could take on kind 15 of more controversial issues that -- 16 JUSTICE SIX: Yes, definitely, because the 17 business community, I mean, Ship Winter's father, 18 Ship Winter, Sr., had been in the community since 19 the 1930s and in fact his grandson, Ship -- Wint 20 Winter, Jr., is the CEO of Peoples Bank and was a 21 state senator from Lawrence in this geographical 22 area and has been a leader in this community, so 23 the -- and then when Jim Owens joined the 24 commission, yes, I think the, that had a 25 substantial effect. �17 1 2 [28:38] MR. ARNOLD: Right. There was an observation 3 made, and I think it was by George, George 4 Caldwell, who I think was involved with the League 5 for the Promotion of Democracy, but in 1963, '64 6 he wrote that he thought that, in its earliest 7 period of existence that the Human Relations 8 Commission was viewed by some as being a little 9 bit disappointing in what they were able to 10 accomplish and he described as because of only 11 grudging acceptance of their role by the City 12 Commission. 13 and that they therefore had to kind of build up 14 rapport and a degree of credibility before they 15 could take on more difficult issues. 16 that's a fair assessment? 17 that way or is it difficult for you to say? 18 Do you have any sense that there's -- JUSTICE SIX: Do you think Would you have seen it I don't know the name George 19 Caldwell, I don't recall it. I may have met him. 20 But in reviewing materials, my correspondence, I 21 noticed that in 1965, I think, I wrote a letter as 22 secretary of the commission to Ray Wells, the city 23 manager, indicating that the commission was 24 interested in a series of questions concerning 25 opportunity in Lawrence and one of them was �18 1 housing, but I was writing him as chair of the 2 subcommittee on employment opportunities and I was 3 asking on behalf of the commission for the city's 4 employment records on minority employment. 5 In 1964 Dr. WIlliam Bins, chairman of the 6 commission, wrote the mayor and the City 7 Commission outlining a whole series, housing, 8 education, employment, that we were headed into, 9 that we were looking into. I had not any 10 experience with the commission before being asked 11 to join, I never appeared before it, nor in my law 12 practice did I have occasion to be involved with 13 it in any way or in my capacity just as a citizen. 14 One of the things we did do as a commission 15 on the swimming pool issue, finally the Jayhawk 16 Plunge owner, it was privately owned, shut it down 17 because there were pickets to open it up to 18 everyone, but it was a private business, so it was 19 closed and that left no pool at all, but in 20 Lawrence then were three, actually four brothers, 21 known as the Moore brothers. 22 Lawrence, Bud Moore, Al Moore, Mark Moore. 23 just died I think earlier this year, or Bob Moore. 24 Mark Moore, his brother, died many years ago. 25 They all grew up in Mark Bob Moore turned out to be quite a builder �19 1 and his son is still active in the community, I 2 think chair of the library board, or has been, but 3 they were builders of houses and they would put -- 4 they had built a, kind of a private club out where 5 Freddy's is at 23rd Street and Iowa and there was 6 a pool there and so our commission, it was really 7 a, kind of a push that we wanted to get something 8 open that the public could go to and the Moore 9 brothers stepped forward, just a total voluntary 10 act on their own, they didn't ask for any money, 11 and this was a small pool but they opened it up to 12 the public and the city, as I recall, furnished a 13 lifeguard or come up, came up with some money for 14 a lifeguard, and I think there was some 15 negotiation probably with the city attorney on 16 liability issues covering the Moore brothers, who 17 owned the pool, or one of their corporations, so 18 that was a bit like a lid on a tea kettle. 19 I mean, there was a feeling that a city like 20 Lawrence -- I mean, what city doesn't have a 21 public swimming pool? 22 mean, on and on, probably even Baldwin City had 23 one, or Eudora, I don't remember, but that was an 24 act that I applauded as an individual and we as a 25 commission. Garden City, Leavenworth, I �20 1 And then we started working with the city on 2 planning, it was primarily the city's 3 responsibility, and there was a recreational fund 4 bond opportunity and eventually the city acquired 5 its swimming pool. 6 7 [35:00] MR. ARNOLD: Right. Obviously with the city 8 doing that, with the fair housing ordinance being 9 passed, and then with some individual actions like 10 you've just described with the Moore brothers 11 people were stepping up and taking action but what 12 do you, what's your sense of in the years leading 13 up to that the, what were the main impediments to 14 bringing about change and starting to address some 15 of the discriminatory actions? 16 JUSTICE SIX: The main -- public schools here 17 had no segregation except in the history there was 18 a black grade school called Lincoln School in 19 North Lawrence and so the public schools were 20 open, but it was the historical carryover from the 21 days of national segregation. 22 Lawrence and Kansas talks about the free 23 state. We have a high school, we have a popular 24 restaurant/brewery, Free State, but actually 25 Kansas wasn't a haven for a negro or for an �21 1 African-American. 2 but what opportunities did you have? 3 segregation was right under the surface and there 4 was always this call in the background of the New 5 Englander tradition, a call of outrage that this 6 shouldn't occur, but it was a lack of sensitivity 7 to the problem. 8 between the races. 9 You could not be a slave here And You didn't associate socially The churches were segregated, and I think 10 generally still are today, and the 11 African-American church was a, a rich experience, 12 not in terms of overall opportunity but the church 13 was a, as I observed it, a supportive, nourishing 14 location where an African-American could go and so 15 an impediment was just the lack of sensitivity, 16 the fear of economic reprisal if you were a 17 restaurant owner, and of course that was broken by 18 Chancellor Murphy, Wilt Chamberlain, Phog Allen 19 bringing Wilt Chamberlain here, and those years 20 predated the famous national title basketball game 21 between North Carolina and K.U. was held in 1958 22 in Municipal Auditorium in Kansas City and the 23 game went into three overtimes and North Carolina 24 won the national championship. 25 Wilt then played '57, '58. Kansas lost. And �22 1 So the restaurants began to open up, but 2 where would you spend the night if you were 3 traveling? 4 Why -- am I going to be the first one, a white 5 owner? 6 And there was just this sensitivity. Am I going to lose money? And then since there was no social mixing you 7 didn't get to know somebody from the other race 8 and as slowly as that changed with the Civil 9 Rights Act, with the ability, the natural ability 10 when it was given an opportunity to blossom, if it 11 was in debate or in chemistry or in literature, on 12 the athletic field, then students began to 13 associate, but I think, I've never taken any 14 particular pride in, oh, Lawrence was a -- I don't 15 think it stood out. 16 chest a little bit when it ought to go back to the 17 history book and see that discrimination was, was 18 the order of the day here until the '60s, although 19 school segregation was not an issue. 20 21 I think now it pumps its [40:28] MR. ARNOLD: Right. One of the things that, 22 that is impressive about Lawrence when you look 23 back at that period is that there were a fair 24 number of citizens kind of at the grassroot level 25 forming groups like the League for the Promotion �23 1 of Democracy, the United Church Women, the Fair 2 Housing Coordinating Committee, who were trying to 3 tackle some of these problems. 4 motivated, you know, some people to step up and, 5 and try to address some of these forms of 6 discrimination, including the fair housing issue? 7 JUSTICE SIX: What do you think I think it was their 8 background. They had come to Lawrence, they were 9 primarily, predominantly I would say connected 10 with the university. 11 put food on their table. 12 They had housing themselves. 13 at the university they had security in employment. 14 If they didn't have tenure they were within a 15 friendly community. 16 They had income adequate to They were well educated. If they had tenure And I think then as the university began to 17 grow we noticed in Lawrence, and in my opinion one 18 of the really positive developments was the 19 development of the Jewish Community Center, 20 because with the development of a Jewish presence 21 in Lawrence there was I think a certain buoyancy 22 added to the arts, to equal opportunity in all 23 areas of life, and the recognition of 24 discrimination against Native Americans as well 25 began to be taken notice of, and I know the �24 1 individuals who, for example at the swimming pool, 2 that was a group led by folks associated with the 3 university and after Franklin Murphy talked to 4 the, as reported, to the restaurant owners and 5 said you open up for everybody or I'll open a 6 restaurant on the campus, and the group began to 7 form. 8 9 It took a lot of leadership and initiative but the individual business person who had a 10 family and depended, or the lawyer who practiced 11 law, who came in the door the next day and you 12 didn't have a paycheck in the mail and so I have 13 thought that fortunately we were in a university 14 community, and I think that would be borne out in 15 Iowa City, Boulder, Colorado, Stillwater, 16 Oklahoma, Lincoln, Nebraska. 17 interchange of ideas. 18 then they bring their values from elsewhere, so 19 they came from New England and from large cities 20 and said, "hey, this isn't fair." 21 The university is an People come and speak and Then we began also to observe intermarriage 22 among the races, and I think it was, I'm guessing 23 at a date, 1967 when the United States Supreme 24 Court struck down the Virginia miscegenation law. 25 I mean, think of that, 1967. �25 1 2 MR. ARNOLD: Yeah, it's not that long ago really. 3 4 Right. JUSTICE SIX: No. [44:41] 5 MR. ARNOLD: Were you personally involved in 6 any of those types of organizations before? 7 know you interacted with them certainly when you 8 became a member of the Human Relations Commission, 9 but did you have any involvement with them before 10 I that? 11 JUSTICE SIX: No. I -- let's look at them. 12 Church Women United I wouldn't have been eligible 13 for. 14 MR. ARNOLD: 15 JUSTICE SIX: Right. League of Women Voters, I was 16 never a member there, although they do permit men. 17 I had not heard of Richard Dulin and that group 18 [this refers to the Lawrence Fair Housing 19 Coordinating Committee]. 20 have a note there on the group that picketed the 21 swimming pool. 22 MR. ARNOLD: The, what was -- you may The Lawrence League for the 23 Promotion of Democracy helped to coordinate that 24 effort. 25 JUSTICE SIX: Yeah, yeah. No. �26 1 MR. ARNOLD: How about through your church? 2 Some of the churches I know were very involved in 3 -- 4 JUSTICE SIX: Yes. Church leaders were, were 5 involved and there were I think 22 churches that 6 lined up and Plymouth Church has through its 7 history always been a leader in, in the equal 8 opportunity, open doors for all citizens, but no, 9 I was not a member myself. 10 11 [46:08] MR. ARNOLD: Okay. As you became a member of 12 the Human Relations Commission did you come on 13 board with any particular concerns about specific 14 aspects of discrimination or did you have any 15 personal goals of things you wanted to accomplish 16 or were you just looking to make whatever kind of 17 contribution that you could make to the group? 18 JUSTICE SIX: No. I joined as one to be 19 educated. I didn't -- I felt housing was, we 20 shouldn't tolerate the current situation, but I, I 21 had, I, in reviewing the material, a news 22 clipping, I noticed I was quoted, appeared before 23 the City Commission several times, maybe three 24 times, and I was quoted in one, I don't 25 independently remember this, but in rebuttal to a �27 1 question I said, according to that quote: 2 a family, a wife, two children. 3 where I want to live. 4 make a move, when I want to sell a house, when I 5 want to buy a house, and my skin is white. 6 why does the skin make the difference? 7 the credit report, the sort of color of the credit 8 report is relevant, is your credit good, if you're 9 going to borrow money. 10 I have I can decide I can decide when I want to Why, You know, But -- so my hope here is that everyone would have the opportunity I have. 11 And it was obvious that it was unfair, but I 12 was not a individual crusader out marching in the 13 streets and leading, carrying signs or anything 14 like that. 15 you know, any shining armor now 50 years later for 16 what I didn't do. 17 paid. I certainly don't want to claim any, I was hoping to get my mortgage 18 But I do think there is a, that once the 19 business community saw, once Mike Getto testified 20 as the manager and owner of the hotel, "well, you 21 know let's open this up," we -- and of course he 22 had to by '67 because of the fair housing, because 23 of the equal, the public accommodations and Civil 24 Rights Act. 25 [49:12] �28 1 MR. ARNOLD: Right. I know the commission 2 had already had a committee or a subcommittee that 3 was looking at housing issues even before you all 4 took up the proposal for an ordinance so obviously 5 that was something of interest and of concern to 6 the commission. 7 involvement with organizations like the Fair 8 Housing Coordinating Committee that you're aware 9 of? 10 11 Were they, did they have prior Were they coordinating their efforts or, you know, sharing information? JUSTICE SIX: I don't have an independent -- 12 I can't say the date or the time but looking at 13 the record, the minutes and my correspondence, for 14 example, in February of 1967 the Lawrence 15 Journal-World ran a series of articles, one right 16 after another, in early February. 17 The first one was written by the Human 18 Relations Commission and the opening sentence of 19 that article was, the title of the article, the 20 headline was: 21 Housing in Lawrence, and the opening line was: 22 Mayor John Weatherwax was asked in 1960, if he'd 23 have been asked in 1960 if Lawrence had a race 24 problem he would have said no but if I, that is, 25 the mayor, was asked today, 1966, I would say yes. Commission Created to Look at �29 1 And that article went on to document where 2 African-Americans had been restricted, so we had 3 been studying that, working with the NAACP. 4 The second article was written by the NAACP, 5 the third article by E. Jackson Bauer, who was a 6 Professor of Sociology at K.U. looking at 7 segregated housing from a sociologist's viewpoint, 8 the fourth article by Bob Casad of the K.U. Law 9 School writing about Brown v. The Board of 10 11 Education, that education was up but not housing. And the last one by R. Reinhold Schmidt, Jr., 12 a reverend, Presbyterian minister who was on the 13 faculty of the K.U. School of Religion, and he 14 wrote about how open housing opportunities would 15 benefit other areas of one's life and the 16 community, so we were hearing of these examples, 17 and of course two members of the commission, 18 Mrs. Wallace and Mr. Spearman, were 19 African-Americans and so they were echoing or 20 talking about the difficulties of housing, but I 21 don't, I don't have -- I haven't refreshed my 22 memory about the minutes in 1964. 23 some in '65, '66, but primarily '67. 24 25 I limited it to But when we started after that January 4, 1967, meeting and resolved to draft an ordinance �30 1 we really, we really went to work on it in 2 earnest. 3 4 [53:25] MR. ARNOLD: Do you recall in, I believe it 5 was in June of '66 you wrote a memo to I think it 6 was William Binns, who I think then was still the 7 chairman of the Human Relations Commission, and 8 you told him that you had reached out to the real 9 estate association to try and meet to talk about 10 fair housing issues and reading between the lines 11 you basically said they kind of rebuffed me, they 12 weren't particularly interested in sitting down 13 unless we had some very specific things to talk 14 about and they didn't want to just talk generally 15 about real estate practices. 16 led to you making that effort and, and -- 17 JUSTICE SIX: Do you recall what Well, I have the letter in my 18 file and I have read it couple of times recently. 19 Bill Binns was chairman and he obviously asked me 20 to make the contact because he was at the faculty, 21 I was practicing law here and I worked with the 22 realtors, or our firm worked with the realtors 23 week in, week out, with somebody on the realtor 24 board, and I wrote the letter to Bill Womack, 25 probably because he was appointed by the realtors �31 1 along with another realtor, Ken Vinyard, to be a 2 subcommittee, and according to my letter, we had 3 as a commission met with them sometime earlier and 4 so we hadn't heard anything more from them and 5 this was outreach on our part saying, because 6 we're now gearing up for this, to get ready the 7 next year moving into the ordinance, can't we meet 8 and work out some specifics, and we were hoping to 9 sit down and see what their real complaints were, 10 what their feelings were, and see if by some 11 accommodation we could work with them, and then he 12 -- there was a phone call, and my letter 13 memorializes the phone conversation, and he said, 14 "Well, what do you want to talk about 15 specifically? 16 We've already met with you once." Well, that's a legitimate point of view, and 17 I said, "Well, I don't have any specific, we just, 18 I wondered if we couldn't get together again." 19 And he said, "Well, it's a busy time of year for 20 us and Ken Vinyard and I, if you have something 21 specific you want to talk about, why, let us know 22 what the specifics are, but we don't want to take 23 the time now just to have another meeting." 24 25 And having the advantage now of many years on many committees and many meetings I, I, I think �32 1 it's well if you're going to meet to have an, have 2 an agenda. 3 MR. ARNOLD: Right. 4 JUSTICE SIX: So I think that was the 5 background and so I was giving, I was reporting to 6 the chairman, and I like to record phone 7 conversations right after -- I don't mean record 8 them for audio but I mean get the letter out to 9 memorialize them so that the record is there and 10 with the passage of time you don't forget what was 11 said and so forth. 12 13 [57:05] MR. ARNOLD: Yes. Jumping ahead a little bit 14 to the period when you were actually drafting the 15 ordinance, was there any interaction then with the 16 real estate community as you all were drafting it 17 to try and get input from them or thoughts from 18 them or did you just -- 19 JUSTICE SIX: 20 No. I don't recall any -- well, Glenn Kappelman -- 21 MR. ARNOLD: Was a real estate -- 22 JUSTICE SIX: -- was a member of the 23 commission and he was a really, really fine 24 person. 25 He was trusted. He had a successful real estate practice. He, the university community, �33 1 when a new member would be coming to the law 2 faculty or to political science somebody in the 3 department would be on the phone with the new, 4 say, hey, you're going need a realtor, look up 5 Glenn Kappelman, and he was, he, his name defined 6 integrity, honesty, fair dealing, and so he, we 7 had an input into the community and he and I would 8 talk and he, I don't remember anything 9 specifically but we'd run things by him and with 10 that sort of turndown from our invitation we just 11 proceeded. 12 13 [58:48] MR. ARNOLD: Right. Well, obviously, as 14 you've mentioned, you played a, or as the record 15 shows, you played kind of the key central role in 16 drafting the ordinance. 17 like the Iowa City and other, other cities' 18 ordinances as a model. 19 that responsibility and who do you recall 20 collaborated with you on that effort? 21 JUSTICE SIX: I know you used things How did you end up with Mrs. Keltz, Dorothy Keltz was 22 chairman of the housing subcommittee, I've 23 refreshed my memory from the minutes on that, and 24 she made a call to a gentleman in Iowa City who 25 was on their Human Relations Commission and talked �34 1 with him. 2 presume because I was the only attorney member of 3 the commission and I had worked, I'd been an 4 assistant attorney general and then while I was, 5 the early months of practice in Lawrence, private 6 practice, I continued working for the Revisor of 7 Statutes in Topeka helping draft legislation for 8 legislators and I'd work over there on the 9 weekends, which as a young struggling lawyer added 10 11 I don't remember why I was asked, I a little, a little change to my livelihood. So I had they probably thought the experience 12 and I had a secretary and I had an office, and 13 then on help, I've talked with Professor Robert 14 Casad, Bob Casad, who now resides up at 15 Presbyterian Manor, and I believe you're going to 16 interview him. 17 MR. ARNOLD: 18 JUSTICE SIX: Yes, we are. And he had some memory of 19 copying some other ordinances. I had no 20 independent recollection of that but when I 21 started through the files I saw that he'd written 22 one of the articles for the Journal-World and I 23 saw that he'd appeared on January 4th, 1967, and 24 had spoken, so I called him back again and 25 refreshed his memory, so when you interview him �35 1 he'll hopefully be aware of that. 2 MR. ARNOLD: 3 JUSTICE SIX: Good. So then when I ran across this 4 little item that, as a commission item of 5 authorizing me to reimburse him for $6.00 of 6 copying expense, why, I knew that he'd copied, 7 because there was no internet then and you'd have 8 to go to a statute book or an ordinance book of 9 the city and find it and put it in a copier and 10 copy it, entirely different than you do today. 11 You just go online and boom, you'd have it today. 12 So I have no independent memory of -- but 13 it's bolstered, my recall's bolstered by the 14 record, refreshed. 15 On the actual language, I think we, I noticed 16 that the City Commission asked questions. For 17 example, Mayor Raney asked about the definition of 18 race, gender, et cetera, and creed, what does 19 creed mean. 20 presentation so then I went back and prepared 21 memoranda and suggested that we look to the State 22 of Kansas, which has a definition for 23 discriminatory practice, and take creed out and 24 any time the Kansas Supreme Court were to 25 interpret the State law it would be helpful, That came up when we made our �36 1 because our definition would be the same. 2 Well, that's lawyering. I mean, that's the 3 kind of thing a lawyer is trained to do, but I was 4 working with Mrs. Keltz, Glenn Kappelman, and 5 bringing all these, bringing this up, these drafts 6 up to the commission itself in March and early 7 April, February, March, and early April, and then 8 the subcommittee had a draft to recommend, the 9 commission went along with it, and then each 10 commissioner, I remember just by looking at the 11 record that there were several questions from the 12 commission indicating that they had read it 13 carefully when we first presented it and then we 14 presented a flow chart so that if we had the 15 opening introduction for our ordinance they could 16 refer to other cities' and we listed 53 cities in 17 18 states, and the idea was to try to be 18 efficacious and persuasive so that the 19 commissioners could go across and see that we 20 weren't doing anything -- we wanted them to have a 21 comfort level and if we could give them a comfort 22 level, then they would not be out all alone doing 23 something no other city had done. 24 25 [1:05:02] MR. ARNOLD: Right. That leads me to my next �37 1 question actually. I was going to ask if you all 2 had kind of strategized before you formally 3 presented the ordinance to the City Commission as 4 to how you would present it in ways that would 5 make them more comfortable with it or more 6 receptive and did you feel pretty confident right 7 from the beginning that this ordinance would pass? 8 JUSTICE SIX: I don't have a memory of a 9 feeling of confidence. I have a memory of a 10 feeling of energized commitment, which personally 11 I was energized as Ship Winter became interested 12 and energized and Glenn Kappelman and Mrs. Wallace 13 and Reverend Steffen and Jim Owens and we, we all 14 supported each other, we respected each other, and 15 I think we felt we had a good team and a good 16 presentation and that we would be successful. 17 I think we had a feeling that the realtors, 18 the realty board was, that time had passed them 19 by, and they were the only opponents. 20 there was no landlords association or, I don't 21 know, who might have been an opponent, homeowners 22 association. 23 I mean, And I mentioned, well, I haven't mentioned 24 today, but the ordinance, we drafted it, and the 25 City Commission took notice of this, so that it �38 1 didn't apply to a church. If a church owned a 2 house and rented it they could rent to whomever, 3 they could -- to your own home, if you had I think 4 four or fewer rooms. 5 wife could have a large home and you could rent 6 rooms to students and you could rent up to four 7 rooms and the ordinance didn't apply, or it didn't 8 apply to duplexes, but now if you had a large home 9 and you had six rooms renting out, then the In other words, you and your 10 reasoning was you're, now you're really operating 11 a housing business. 12 MR. ARNOLD: 13 JUSTICE SIX: Right. So we had the argument, of 14 course, with a rhetorical question, "where's the 15 rub?" I mean, what's, what's the problem with 16 this? And the ordinance then passed, with five on 17 the commission, four to one. 18 19 [1:08:12] MR. ARNOLD: Do you recall when the 20 commission held hearings they held separate 21 hearings for -- the proponents appeared at one and 22 the opponents at another one. 23 of a standard practice or was it merely a time 24 management thing or was there some reason they 25 didn't want the opponents and the proponents Was, was that kind �39 1 2 appearing at the same time? JUSTICE SIX: No, I think it was use, good 3 use of the Commission's time. 4 Tuesday commission meetings so they put it on the 5 agenda, put the ordinance on the agenda, there was 6 wide publicity, and the first time they would 7 listen -- they had other business as well. 8 were not separate commission hearings just for 9 fair housing. 10 MR. ARNOLD: 11 JUSTICE SIX: They had regular These Okay. Fair housing was the dominant 12 item on the agenda but there were the, you know, 13 honoring somebody for this day or that day, 14 recognizing the Cub Scouts, all the things that 15 the City Commission does, and then they'd come to 16 item two or nine or whatever it was and they'd 17 have the proponents, and then the next week they 18 had the opponents, and I noticed in reading the 19 press reports that the realtors, the realtors' 20 spokesman, not their lawyer but their spokesman, 21 said that he really wasn't as prepared as he'd 22 like to be and so the mayor said, well, we'll hold 23 it over another week and you can have an 24 opportunity fully to voice your objections. 25 And then that occurred along in, in the next �40 1 week along in late June, early July, and then the 2 opponents raised questions on vagueness, First 3 Amendment, interference, interference with the 4 right of contract, and so then the city gave us 5 the opportunity to rebuttal and we came back the 6 third time, and, as I recall, they opened it up 7 then if anybody had anything else to say in 8 opposition as well, but that third time, according 9 to the press reports, and I have noticed I 10 prepared written submissions in rebuttal on those 11 points for each commissioner, and then it was put 12 on the what's called first reading, and that maybe 13 was early July, and then the mayor, Dick Raney, 14 signed it July the 20th and it became the 15 ordinance of the city. 16 17 [1:11:16] MR. ARNOLD: Right. Could you elaborate on 18 the three points of objection that the realtors 19 had, what the, kind of the substance or the nature 20 of those objections were? 21 JUSTICE SIX: Yes. First as to vagueness, 22 there is an axiom tenet in the law that any law 23 that has a criminal sanction, whether it be a 24 fine, imprisonment, cannot be vague, it must be so 25 specific that the one charged knows when embarking �41 1 on that activity that it will be a violation. 2 There cannot be ambiguity in, for example, take 3 parking. 4 or No Parking after 6:00 p.m. do you mean Central 5 Standard Time or Daylight Time or what time, or 6 what is sundown? 7 When you mark No Parking After Sundown So you say No Parking after 8:00 p.m. and 8 that's whatever -- if it's 8:00 p.m. in the city 9 of Lawrence and you're there after 8:00 p.m. and 10 you get a ticket you cannot go very far with the 11 municipal judge saying that's vague, I didn't know 12 when 8:00 p.m. was, but if you said No Parking 13 After Sundown there might be an argument, well, on 14 Tuesday on the 31st of May was the sun down when 15 you gave me -- so that's vagueness, and the 16 counter to that was to show that there were 53 17 cities and 18 states that had had similar language 18 and discrimination was spelled out and if you -- 19 you come to a point where the public good balances 20 out the vagueness. 21 The ordinance was structured so that if there 22 was a complaint of a violation it was investigated 23 by our commission and then it went to an 24 arbitration to see if it couldn't be resolved and 25 then ultimately it went to the city attorney, who �42 1 would take it into municipal court. 2 I will be interested in knowing if Lawrence ever 3 had a case that went that far. 4 one. 5 I don't know, I'm not aware of The argument about the first, interference 6 with contract was that you have a right to sell to 7 whoever you wish to sell to, but there are of 8 course limitations on one's right when it is 9 balanced against the general good, like blending 10 with free speech. 11 the standard canard on that is you can't yell 12 "fire" in a crowded theater and say, well, that's 13 free speech. 14 to limitation as well, and the overall public good 15 of having open housing did not affect you 16 economically. 17 who had a poor credit rating. 18 You don't have a right to yell, So the right to contract is subject You didn't have to sell to someone On the freedom of speech argument, I thought 19 that was the weaker of the three, but it was 20 simply that speech is broad, it isn't just oral 21 speech but it blends with my right to sell or to 22 rent my property to whoever I -- if you tell me I 23 cannot rent to somebody, then that impinges on my 24 overall individual right to express myself. 25 [1:15:55] �43 1 MR. ARNOLD: Okay. What do you think it was 2 that ultimately swayed the City Commission to pass 3 the ordinance four to one? 4 JUSTICE SIX: I think they were men of good 5 will. 6 them, Don Metzler, was a professor of engineering 7 at K.U. 8 while this was pending, I didn't think that was 9 appropriate or needed. 10 They were successful individuals. One of I didn't talk to any of them individually I knew, I knew them all. I knew some -- Dick Raney was closer to my 11 age and so we were personally acquainted. 12 aware of his sympathies towards equality for all 13 because I had heard him talk, I mean just in his, 14 just as friends talk, and so I was pleased that he 15 was the mayor and I think he, if somebody wants to 16 dish out some credit 50 years hence, why, he's an 17 individual that should receive a blue ribbon. 18 But Jim Black was a builder. I was He was involved 19 with the building community. Clark Morton had a 20 building blocks company. 21 the -- Mitt Allen was the city attorney. 22 he was -- he was the son of Phog Allen and 23 intimately involved with the basketball program so 24 I think, I always thought, well, we had a friend 25 and a sympathetic ear there. They were -- and I think I think �44 1 And I think it was, in Lawrence generally it 2 was an idea whose time had arrived. 3 it was any great, for a minute any -- I don't 4 think we persuaded any vote. 5 we gave them -- they were coming to the table and 6 we just provided a meal that hopefully they found 7 palatable. 8 9 I don't think I think we enabled, [1:18:34] MR. ARNOLD: That's a great way to put it. 10 Do you recall, I think there was a press report, 11 one of the articles in the Journal-World that in 12 late June described a meeting at John Emick's home 13 between the city attorney, I think other city 14 commissioners, in which there was discussion of 15 modifying the ordinance to have, have fair housing 16 complaints go directly to the city attorney rather 17 than to the, through the Human Relations 18 Commission. 19 involved and was that kind of an unusual thing do 20 you think to have kind of a private closed meeting 21 like that to discuss -- 22 JUSTICE SIX: 23 Do you recall that meeting? Were you I'm not familiar with that story, nor was I involved with that meeting -- 24 MR. ARNOLD: 25 JUSTICE SIX: Okay. -- and I have no independent, �45 1 no recollection at all of that. 2 MR. ARNOLD: 3 JUSTICE SIX: Okay. If that -- I'd be interested in 4 reading that clipping if at some time you have it 5 and I could, because this is, you're telling me 6 something I was not aware of. 7 8 9 [1:19:31] MR. ARNOLD: Okay. Sure. We can take a look at that afterwards. 10 I have two or three questions regarding the 11 substance of the ordinance that Scott Wagner had 12 wanted me to bring up with you. 13 First of all, was -- the ordinance called 14 for, besides potentially a hundred dollar fine, up 15 to 30 days in jail for a violation. 16 controversial? 17 jail time, although I know many of the other city 18 ordinances had similar stipulations in it, but was 19 there any pushback on, on that kind of, that form 20 of punishment? 21 Was that Did people view the potential of JUSTICE SIX: Not that I'm, not that I recall 22 at all, nobody raised that question. I think that 23 was, you know, that was the end of the line and it 24 perhaps was discussed in the vagueness argument 25 made by the attorney for the realtors. The �46 1 attorney was a gentleman Don Hults, who was a 2 state senator from this district, and he was a 3 fine man and our law office was, you know, right 4 down the hall from his, though he may have alluded 5 to that in his argument on vagueness, but I have 6 no recollection of the penalty. 7 8 9 [1:21:01] MR. ARNOLD: Okay. Do you recall why you all decided to include an anti-blockbusting clause in 10 the Lawrence ordinance? 11 some cities had that but small minority. 12 there particular concerns that that could be a 13 problem in Lawrence or was it just something you 14 all added for thoroughness? 15 JUSTICE SIX: Because that was not -Was I respond to that this way. I 16 have had no recollection of that before embarking 17 on reading through all the material of 50 years 18 ago, and I did come across, of course, our flow 19 chart and my remarks to the City Commission that 20 the blockbusting ordinance was taken from Wichita. 21 MR. ARNOLD: 22 JUSTICE SIX: Uh-huh. And I probably said that, 23 telling them where it was from, so it would -- 24 they'd say, oh, well, if Wichita has -- but 25 blockbusting was in the news then and you may have �47 1 seen, you may have seen the movie or the play 2 Raisin in the Sun, the Lawrence, Theater Lawrence 3 put that on last year and then a sequel to it in a 4 fascinating group of characters 50 years later in 5 the same Chicago area, but blockbusting was a term 6 that -- and I, I'm just trying to put some reason 7 to it now, but no independent recollection. 8 can't tell you we said, oh, we need a 9 blockbusting, that since that was part of the I 10 fabric of open housing we reached out, saw that 11 Wichita had it, put it in. 12 13 [1:23:05] MR. ARNOLD: Okay. Kind of in the 14 introduction to the ordinance there was a 15 statement, is a statement that says: 16 Lawrence is a center of culture whose democratic 17 principles are being constantly observed by 18 foreign students and visitors from all over the 19 world." 20 21 22 "The City of Do you recall who added that and why it was added? JUSTICE SIX: No. I'll give you a couple of 23 places, maybe a couple of thoughts. Lawrence had 24 the ordinance creating the Human Relations 25 Commission and that ordinance became law in 1961 �48 1 and was signed by Mayor Dr. Ted Kennedy and it may 2 be that that was the prologue, that was some 3 language from the ordinance creating the Human 4 Relations Commission. 5 The second thought on that language is that 6 on January 4, 1967, during this crowded meeting of 7 the Human Relations Commission when we had 56 8 observers one of them was a lady, I think Louise 9 Lane, who spoke about working with foreign student 10 families and graduate student families and foreign 11 faculty families and trying, when someone would 12 come who was from Africa or from a geographical 13 location where the indigenous population was other 14 than white, coming to the university and she'd 15 encountered difficulty and she was sharing with us 16 her difficulty in working with those groups, 17 trying to explain to them why, why you just 18 couldn't go in and move in and so forth, so it 19 might have tied to that experience, or it might 20 have just been self-, a little self-polish that I 21 think every city that makes a proclamation 22 probably starts out about, you know, the sort of 23 boosterism that goes on with a whereas such and 24 such and whereas such and such. 25 [1:25:52] �49 1 MR. ARNOLD: Right. I just wondered if it 2 might have come from some influence of the 3 university because I know if you read the, and you 4 probably have the letter that Vice Chancellor 5 Surface sent in support of the fair housing 6 ordinance and that Ted Owens, which you read the 7 other night, both of them talked about, you know, 8 concern for Lawrence's image in attempting to 9 recruit foreign students, recruit diverse faculty, 10 recruit basketball players, and so that kind of 11 gets, falls into that category of being concerned 12 about what Lawrence's image is. 13 JUSTICE SIX: I was not aware of Vice 14 Chancellor Surface's letter. I'm sure I saw it 50 15 years ago but it wasn't in the packet of -- what I 16 did was I about five years ago, the Spencer 17 Research Library at K.U. contacted me and had an 18 interest in my papers, files, so I spent a summer 19 after I retired sanitizing and making sure that 20 there was no confidence that would be revealed and 21 included in that group was my file as secretary of 22 the Fair Housing Commission and so I turned that 23 over to the Spencer and so what I had, due to the 24 gracious acts of Scott Wagner, who went up and 25 copied my file and then presented it to me and �50 1 that's what I've reviewed and in there I didn't 2 see the Surface letter, but that would have been 3 certainly in the kit or the brochure that we 4 presented to the city. 5 6 [1:27:42] MR. ARNOLD: Right. You've already mentioned 7 Dick Raney having played kind of a key role in the 8 passage of the ordinance. 9 specific individuals who really stand out in your Were there any other 10 mind now that kind of played prominent or 11 important roles in making this, bringing this to 12 fruition? 13 JUSTICE SIX: I think Glenn Kappelman, being 14 a realtor with a prominent firm, Calvin, Eddy and 15 Kappelman, and I'm just reading between the lines, 16 but if I'd been a city commissioner and I see 17 Glenn Kappelman there, a realtor, successful 18 realtor that doesn't have any problem with this 19 ordinance what's -- I think his presence was 20 helpful. 21 And again, I've mentioned Jim Owens, Mike 22 Getto, and Ship Winter appearing and they would be 23 maybe having, maybe going to Rotary the next day 24 and city commissioners would be Rotarians or be in 25 the Kiwanis or be in a church group or something �51 1 and, and Mrs. Wallace, the chairman of the 2 commission, was so well spoken and I think well 3 thought of. 4 So, and I'd have to mention Mrs. Keltz was 5 prominent in the community as well. She grew up 6 in Lawrence. 7 the long-time refuse, or we called it the 8 junkyard, and as a Boy Scout our troop used to go 9 down there and sell paper during World War II. 10 We'd collect newspapers and take them down to 11 Mr. Cohen and Mr. Cohen's staff, so the Keltz 12 family, Mr. Keltz was in business here. 13 business on Massachusetts Street and she was 14 active in mental health and in things like the 15 food bank. Her father was Mr. Cohen that had He had a She was just a prominent individual. 16 And then the Williams tie-in with the 17 university and with the community generally, and 18 with the city, because at that time above the City 19 Hall on the top floor, that's where the Williams 20 boys had their office, because their father had 21 been the chauffeur for Mrs. Elizabeth Watkins and, 22 while their father was a student at K.U., and then 23 when Mrs. Watkins inherited all her wealth 24 Mr. Williams was her farm manager and executor of 25 her estate and part of the agreement with the city �52 1 was to have their office so the Williams folks 2 were right, right above or where the City 3 Commission was meeting. 4 [1:31:12] 5 MR. ARNOLD: Right. Do you have a sense at 6 the time that the ordinance was being considered 7 by the commission and then once it was passed that 8 there was fairly broad-based community support for 9 the measure? 10 JUSTICE SIX: I would think so. I don't -- 11 I'm persuaded by the exhibits you had Monday 12 night, or Scott Wagner did, of the photocopies of 13 986 names in the paper, pretty persuasive. 14 MR. ARNOLD: 15 JUSTICE SIX: Right. And then another hundred in 16 another ad that didn't get in in time, and I, what 17 I don't recall is any arbitrations or any 18 complaints specifically that we dealt with, but I 19 don't have any record to refresh my memory. 20 think it just, everybody went to work the next day 21 and that was, that was it. 22 23 I [1:32:22] MR. ARNOLD: I know in the late 1960s and 24 early '70s following the passage of the Fair 25 Housing Ordinance there was some racial unrest in �53 1 Lawrence, and some of it violent, but do you feel 2 that the ordinance, along with, you know, the 3 changing practices of the businesses and public 4 accommodation, that over time have you seen, and 5 obviously we, improvement needs to be continuous, 6 but did you get a sense over time that Lawrence 7 made important changes in eliminating 8 discriminatory practices? 9 know, the Civil Rights Act and the Fair Housing 10 Act at the federal level played a role as well, 11 but do you feel like the community made 12 substantive observable changes that you felt 13 reflected well on the community over time? 14 JUSTICE SIX: And obviously, you The changes were made and at my 15 anecdotal observation they were precipitated 16 primarily by the quality and ability of black 17 athletes and the support of the university for the 18 athletic program. 19 were hired who were African-Americans and their 20 salaries were published and they were in relation 21 to others in Lawrence rather robust, they were, 22 they were purchasing housing I think anywhere they 23 wanted to, and then Danny Manning's father was 24 hired as an assistant coach. 25 Lawrence High School and he was a popular student I think when assistant coaches Danny came to �54 1 and of course an exemplary athlete, individual, 2 now he's a head coach at Wake Forest. 3 I think another influence that ought to be 4 mentioned, hasn't so far, the name just occurred 5 to me, and that would be Bob Billings, now 6 deceased. 7 Bob Billings was a contemporary of Wilt 8 Chamberlain's and played basketball for K.U. 9 grew up in Russell, Kansas, and he was a We have a parkway named after him, but He 10 preeminent business person here. 11 Alvamar Golf Course, Alvamar Homes, Alvamar Tennis 12 Center, contributed to the university and was just 13 an open-hearted, gracious individual who would not 14 tolerate for one split second any arbitrary 15 exclusion on the basis of one's race or religion 16 and I think he, I think his influence was 17 significant. 18 He developed I can't evaluate or measure what our work 19 did. Some observer who's studied the situation 20 could be more objective about that. 21 work permitted some African-American family, or 22 some minority family, to have an opportunity that 23 they might not otherwise have had, but I think 24 the, Chancellor Murphy, the Surface letter, by 25 1967 Dr. Murphy had gone on from here because he I hope our �55 1 left here in about I'd say 1960 and went out to 2 UCLA as president there and Dr. Wescoe came as 3 chancellor, who would have had the same feeling 4 about university and equal opportunity for all its 5 students, but I'm glad I thought of Bob Billings 6 in this context. 7 8 9 [1:37:41] MR. ARNOLD: Good. As you've mentioned, you were in 1987 appointed to the Kansas Court of 10 Appeals and a year later to a seat as a justice on 11 the Kansas Supreme Court. 12 experiences on the Human Relations Commission and 13 in seeking to address civil rights issues in 14 Lawrence in the 1960s in any way influenced your 15 judicial perspectives? 16 JUSTICE SIX: Would you say your Issues of race per se in the 17 years that I was on the State Supreme Court would 18 have been federal issues. 19 through HUD or up through the Federal Civil Rights 20 Act, Public Accommodations Act. 21 any housing case that the court considered while I 22 was on the court. They would have gone I don't recall 23 I do recall from reading cases in the past an 24 early Kansas Supreme Court case, maybe back in the 25 1920s, which might have been out of Pittsburg, �56 1 Kansas, that had to do with employment, maybe by a 2 school, school board. 3 It might have been a gender discrimination, but 4 for -- but then the associations that one has 5 wherever you are have some affect on your 6 personality and your thinking and, I think like 7 osmosis, just, you can't tell when it comes in or 8 when it comes out of what makes up your thinking 9 or your perspective on applying the facts of the 10 case and the law, because that's what judges are 11 to do, not their own personal viewpoint, what they 12 think, how they think, how it ought to be decided, 13 but what makes you an individual is really all of 14 the associations you have had through your 15 lifetime leading to the bench. 16 I'm a little vague here. And I remember specifically a meeting on 17 housing held in Manhattan at Kansas State 18 University and Mrs. Wallace and I were delegates 19 from our commission so I said to her, "Mayzelma," 20 we were on a first name basis, "why don't I come 21 by and pick you up and we'll go over?" 22 remember picking her up and how lovely she looked 23 and how well she spoke and how proud I was of her 24 being a colleague in Lawrence. 25 of the program and there were people from all over And I She had some part �57 1 the state. 2 And so that type of association, I couldn't 3 identify a time or a moment, but I certainly had a 4 point of view of equality for all, but I think 5 that was with me early on from my, from my 6 parents. 7 again, I referred earlier in my remarks, why 8 wasn't I in the principal's office at Lawrence 9 High School demanding that blacks be permitted to We had no -- yet having said that, 10 play basketball? 11 just a lack of sensitivity. 12 And I can't answer that. It was [1:42:18] 13 MR. ARNOLD: Reflecting back now on the role 14 you played on the Human Relations Commission, what 15 would you say you were most proud of? 16 JUSTICE SIX: Oh, I think the work on the 17 housing ordinance and the work the commission did 18 in preparing it, also the work, part of 19 arbitrating through the swimming pool crisis, but 20 the housing ordinance would stand out. 21 22 [1:42:54] MR. ARNOLD: In thinking back on that time 23 frame in your life and on what was going on not 24 only in Lawrence but in the country, what do you 25 think we can do today to kind of instill in young �58 1 people an understanding and appreciation for that 2 time and an appreciation for how important the 3 struggle of African-Americans to achieve equality 4 really was and how that legacy can be carried over 5 today in struggles that we're still facing in 6 other areas of inequality? 7 JUSTICE SIX: I have some views on that. I 8 think the City of Lawrence, the Churches United, 9 any -- the Chamber of Commerce, the economic 10 development, needs to look at minority families 11 and single parent families. 12 I have four grandchildren. If they need to 13 go to soccer practice we don't have any trouble 14 getting them there. 15 around, although I'm seldom called on, but we need 16 to give children opportunities so that the working 17 mother with three children, how is she going to 18 get the child to an enrichment program at 7:30 in 19 the evening at the library? 20 They have two parents and I'm The law faculty professor and her husband, 21 they can, they say, "Okay, Sadie, we're going to 22 go down to a special reading program; hurry up and 23 finish dinner, jump in the car and away we go." 24 But that single mother in a minority family, maybe 25 one of the children is a toddler. Who's going to �59 1 2 be at home while she drives? And I think a community really could stand 3 out in America if it formed a commission of 4 credible individuals from various sectors of the 5 community that the committee had gravitas, when it 6 spoke it had people that would be taken notice, 7 and that community came through with grants. 8 we write grants? 9 provide trans -- the elderly can call and get Can we get money? 10 transportation. 11 about the parents of the toddlers? 12 Can Can we What about the toddlers? What Because to me the root is education and 13 opportunity and you're not going to be a first 14 chair clarinetist if you don't have the 15 opportunity to get to the lessons, and sure the 16 school, when you get to middle school the school 17 will give you a clarinet or whatever you want but 18 it takes more than that. 19 So that is my thought, to give opportunity to 20 the children of Lawrence through implementing the 21 opportunity. 22 recreation center, but if the minority children 23 can't get to it or the low income. You can build a Rock Chalk Park, the 24 Monday night at the meeting you and I 25 attended one of the audience raised a question �60 1 about affordable housing, who is a disabled woman, 2 paid 850 a month rent and had a total check a 3 month of 1250 or something. Well, that opened my 4 eyes to affordable housing. And I understand the 5 city's working on that, but if we don't have 6 affordable housing, then the children growing up 7 don't have that opportunity, so education and the 8 opportunity for education and enrichment of arts, 9 sport, gives the child confidence, brings all 10 children together. 11 would be my answer. 12 MR. ARNOLD: They grow and that's, that Great. Well, Justice Six, thank 13 you very much. 14 to sit down with you and have you answer a lot of 15 questions and we went for quite some time but I 16 think it was quite worthwhile and I appreciate 17 your perspectives. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 This was a wonderful opportunity JUSTICE SIX: Thank you. ***** � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource City of Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History African Americans -- Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History Description An account of the resource <p>On July 18, 1967, Lawrence mayor Richard Raney signed into law Ordinance 3749, which provided fair housing protections to the citizens of Lawrence and predated the passage of the federal fair housing ordinance by almost a year. The purpose of this oral history project, sponsored by the City of Lawrence to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ordinance, is to document and capture the memories, roles and issues surrounding the passage of Ordinance 3749.</p> <p>In May 1961 the Lawrence City Commission established an interracial Lawrence Human Relations Commission (LHRC) to “further amicable [race] relations” and “investigate…practices of discrimination” within the city. Separately, in 1964 various community organizations, including the NAACP and church groups, formed the Lawrence Fair Housing Coordinating Committee (LFHCC). Working together, the LHRC and the LFHCC submitted a proposed fair housing ordinance to the Lawrence City Commission in April 1967 seeking to address discriminatory practices in the sale and rental of homes in the city that effectively perpetuated patterns of racial segregation. Although strongly opposed by the Lawrence Real Estate Board representing local agents, the Fair Housing Ordinance passed the city commission on July 18, 1967. As its stated purpose the ordinance aimed “to provide for the general welfare of the citizens of Lawrence by declaring discriminatory practices in the rental, leasing, sale, financing or showing and advertising of dwelling units, commercial units or real property to be against public policy, and to provide for enforcement thereof.”</p> <p>Approval of Lawrence’s Fair Housing Ordinance predated the signing of the Federal Fair Housing Act by nine months and preceded passage of the Kansas Fair Housing Act by nearly three years. This landmark piece of civic legislation, promoted by a diverse group of concerned residents of a university town that viewed itself as an example of American values to outsiders, including foreign students, and aspired to embody the ideals of its Free-State legacy, addressed discriminatory practices in housing, providing means for victims to seek redress and imposing penalties on violators. The origins, development and importance of this citizen-inspired movement warrants examination and interpretation as the city approaches the 50th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Ordinance of 1967. <br /><br />Interviews for this project were conducted by Thomas Arnold in the summer and fall of 2016.</p> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available City of Lawrence (Lawrence, Kan.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Relation A related resource <p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to access the audio recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p> <p>A selection of the interviews were also recorded on video. Click <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzt8e_efB6wWS-BHMpGWKW46fyHPtfKPZ">here</a> to access the video recordings of the interviews in this collection.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arnold, Tom Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Six, Fred N. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Honorable Fred N. Six Subject The topic of the resource Discrimination in housing -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History Segregation -- Kansas -- Lawrence -- History Lawrence (Kan.) -- Race relations -- History Ordinance 3749 (Lawrence, Kan.) Jayhawk Plunge (Lawrence, Kan.) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Fred N. Six, who was the secretary of the Lawrence Human Relations Commission at the time that Lawrence's fair housing ordinance was passed in July 1967. This interview was conducted by Tom Arnold on October 6, 2016, as part of the Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Six, Fred N. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Lawrence Fair Housing Ordinance 50th Anniversary Oral History Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available City of Lawrence, Human Relations Division (Lawrence, Kan.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/5/2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Arnold, Tom Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. The public may freely copy, modify, and share this Item for noncommercial purposes if they include the original source information. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s). Relation A related resource <p>Click <a href="https://soundcloud.com/lawrenceksaudio/fred-six-interview-10052016?in=lawrenceksaudio/sets/50-years-of-fair-housing-in">here</a> to listen to the audio recording of this interview.</p> <p>Click <a href="https://youtu.be/ig6wu13h6tY">here</a> to view the video recording of this interview.</p> <p>The Spencer Research Library at the University of Kansas is the official repository for this collection of oral histories.</p> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SixInterview100616.pdf (transcript) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lawrence (Kan.) 1950 - 1967